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[Music]

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old days

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[Music]

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yeah

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on a Monday night we usually don't do it

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like this but we do it when we get a

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guest this big and guess what UFOs are

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going going to the ejection seat tonight

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and we're going bigfooting with my man

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from Idaho State welcome back I am DJ

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the host and along with the co-creator

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co-conspirator executive producer in fun

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interesting and entertaining positive

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talk about what Matt calls The

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Unexplained the phenomenon be it Bigfoot

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paranormal UFOs money Nathan what's up

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brother it's great to be here uh I you

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know this morning I started out with the

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case of the Mondays but they are in the

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rear view mirror I am so excited to be

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here tonight with Dr Jeff it's gonna be

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a good one can I get an amen

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so also uh with us is uh the the uh the

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Paragon of our cabinet cabbie virtue

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right here she's an original gangster

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she is uh people who counsels people on

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how to deal with their problems

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especially if you have dealt with a

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phenomenon you want to get a hold of Deb

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of UAP Med uh she is the host of Deb's

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Dada Dojo at a study of uap's Deb what's

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up homegirl I'm ready to get scientific

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and we brought on the right person to do

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that well actually I was chatting with

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about our guest with uh Dr Simeon Hein

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who actually had class tonight or we

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would have had him on but it turns out

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someone in simeon's family roomed with

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with Jeff at like duke or something I

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don't know we're gonna have to put this

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together Annie went to Stony Brook which

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means he's a New Yorker like me so

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without further Ado money he's a

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professor of anatomy and anthropology at

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Idaho State University where his work on

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how do I say this vertebrate

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evolutionary morphology and primate

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locomotor adaptations and the immersion

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of human bipedalism party people put

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those hands together

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we used to be here it sounds kind of

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ostentatian when you say it like that

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that's led me of the interests and

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Specialties yeah it's kind of kind of

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obtuse I guess for some but

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I love it I heard you speak at Ocala

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Jeff we got to meet up there and I loved

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it and you know

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um I I like to tell the UFO community

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that you are like of the Dr Gary Nolan

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uh of of the Bigfoot Community you bring

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a sense of legitimacy to the topic that

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we need uh just like Gary does on the

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UFO side of the house you guys are all

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colleagues you know Simeon Hein kind of

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vacillates between both communities

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which is great and um and so from that

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standpoint you know I really I really

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wanted to get your thoughts and and

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especially I I I'd like you to get into

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a little bit for for the benefit of our

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audience who is not as steeped in Big

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footology if you will uh as much as uh

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someone like myself who has dove in head

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first Nathan to a slightly lesser degree

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um the way you've broken down the

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Patterson gimlin film I thought would be

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interesting but before before we get to

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that brother we got to get to something

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that we have been asking your colleagues

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and by me your colleagues I mean phds

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that are studying the phenomenon writ

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large The Unexplained one one uh tangent

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or another right and we have asked them

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uh to talk about what their favorite

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potato chips are after we saw a trend so

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to help us to to provide to to add to

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this data set can you please tell us uh

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your favorite chips are they a salted

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potato chip either with ridges or

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without are they a seasoned potato chip

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or are you polychip in some way oh my

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well I've reached that stage of life

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where one has to uh uh be very careful

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about salt intake so chips are really

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way down on the scale they're they're a

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rare treat

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um we indulged in a bag of uh of uh

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Doritos some Hot Doritos I can't

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remember what flavor it was even my wife

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picked it up but I I must say I you know

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I search

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a long and hard to find regular tortilla

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chips that are

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reduced salt that you know the the good

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brands that don't uh that don't uh Parts

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your mouth when you stick it because I

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love salsa and I love guacamole I love

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mixing all those uh you know the the

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black beans and rice and and guac and

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sour cream stack it on and then just go

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at it with a a bowl of chips so I'd have

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to say I'd have to say tortilla chips

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probably because but that's not potato

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It's gotta be potato based oh you just

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said chips okay well yeah uh you know uh

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I I'm I'm partial to Stacks quite

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honestly barbecue flavored Stacks that's

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my you know go with the sandwich uh

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Choice a nice all right dill pickles

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here and and a sandwich and a stack of

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or a handful of of chips because they

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have they're baked they have less oils

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less salt so anyway I am with you

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brother so you are you are in this

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you've skewed the data a little bit from

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some of your colleagues who were

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polychip uh Dr Gary Nolan was a was a

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seesaw person like myself but but okay

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so you've you're a seasoned chip person

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that's where you're at you like a

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seasoned chip like barbecue okay yeah

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thank you for adding to that and playing

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along with our Ridiculousness uh let me

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let me pass you over to the capable

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hands of money Nathan just one more data

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point right the world's a better place

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for it right absolutely answering big

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questions here yeah so uh Dr Meldrum as

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DJ mentioned I think it would be great

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for our audience if if we could just

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have you speak to the Patterson gimlin

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footage a little bit a lot of our folks

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just aren't familiar even talking today

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to someone about this and they were like

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I haven't seen that film which surprises

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me you know everyone has seen that film

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but yeah there are some who just aren't

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familiar with it so what I wanted to do

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I'll just put it up on screen real quick

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it's a short clip actually slowed it

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down just a little because I think it's

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a little easier to to think about slow

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so we're going to put it up and uh and

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maybe you can kind of walk us through

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this just just a little bit here so hold

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on sure

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well this is this is shot in Northern

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California back in 1967 at a time when

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you know much of Northern California was

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extremely wild it still is there's a few

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you know paved highways that uh

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crisscross that end of the state but uh

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Roger Patterson and Bob gimlin had gone

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down there uh in uh in follow-up to a

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report of some exceptional Footprints uh

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one of which I'm I'm inclined to think

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is actually her Footprints this

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individual and uh she was appeared to be

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in company with two smaller individuals

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one with a 13 inch foot and one with an

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11 inch foot

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and

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the 11 inch one isn't as well documented

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and there there have been some that have

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suggested that might have actually been

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one of the loggers who took their boot

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off and sawkoff to step next to the

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footprint uh for a scale

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but uh in any case uh they were down

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there and as you can see they they

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struck gold when it came

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uh to that uh that Friday and they went

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up a particular Creek and as they came

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around abandoned the creek there was a

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big Crow's Nest a big root wad there's

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as you can see all the debris that's

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littering the uh the scoured creek

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bottom the valley there uh as a result

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of seasonal floods there had been some

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real severe flooding so a lot of debris

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and that probably that and the and the

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sound of the creek babbling down through

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its bed and perhaps you know the

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direction of the wind the creature

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didn't

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um wasn't apparently aware of their

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approach and as they emerged around that

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big Crow's Nest

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uh off to their left standing much

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closer than you see it here even

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uh was this creature on the the creek

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bed uh The Sandbar the creek had kind of

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cut down through the SandBar and so it

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was recessed about three feet

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and um the horses got smell of it and

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reared and Roger's horse fell on its

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side he uh very nimbly he'd actually

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practiced extricating his camera from

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the saddlebag he kept one of the one of

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the buckles on the Saddleback open so

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that he could reach right in pull it out

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and went running across the creek

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filming as he ran so the first part the

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precedes this clip that you showed uh

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the image is gyrating wildly as Rogers

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running across the creek you catch a

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couple of glimpses of it as the camera

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lens passes over but then he literally

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you know you can imagine with one eye

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closed the other eye just up against

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this little viewfinder which makes

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everything look very small quite

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honestly he ran uh right headlong into

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that three foot tall Sandbar the bank

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there and it knocked him to his knees

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dropped him to Disney which was good

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because then he could stable

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yeah and he had that uh that very iconic

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pan

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uh to stay dry as the creature um

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walked across uh behind the debris

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obscured by debris at one point he got

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up and changed positions when the

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intervening trees was were obscuring his

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View and he got a really interesting

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parting shot as it makes its way up the

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Upstream

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and you can see the whole back profile

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this massive broad shoulders and and

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traps uh the coming up high on the head

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and and a very interesting aspect to the

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gate you can actually see how as it

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lifts each foot it turns the foot out a

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little bit and uh I think that's an just

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an adaptation to the relatively longer

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foot I mean longer relative to leg

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length that we see you know it kind of

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reminds me of when you try to walk on

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the beach down the beach into the water

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with swim fins on and you have to kind

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of high step and turn your foot out a

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little bit or else you know it's easier

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yes or turn around and walk backwards

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but you know so the the skeptic would

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say oh well yeah that's because he's

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wearing these big clown feet so he has

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to walk like he's wearing flippers uh

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the whoever's in the costume but no I

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think it's I think it's part of the I

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mean the adaptation it doesn't look

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unnatural in the least it doesn't look

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awkward uh or uh or ungainly I mean it

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just it's a smooth

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um seamless gate that is so you know

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correlated with the rest of the anatomy

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so

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anyway I was going to say not to mention

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no one on planet Earth would have made

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it a female if they were trying to

271
00:12:16,130 --> 00:12:14,760
create a monster suit no one would have

272
00:12:18,530 --> 00:12:16,140
said hey you know what let's add mammary

273
00:12:21,230 --> 00:12:18,540
glands for the helmet well the The

274
00:12:23,810 --> 00:12:21,240
Devil's Advocate would say

275
00:12:26,810 --> 00:12:23,820
it's hard you know a male Sasquatches

276
00:12:29,030 --> 00:12:26,820
allegedly anywhere from seven to eight

277
00:12:31,610 --> 00:12:29,040
or nine feet tall hard to find someone

278
00:12:35,389 --> 00:12:31,620
to fit a suit hard to find a suit that's

279
00:12:38,150 --> 00:12:35,399
made for someone of that stature and so

280
00:12:40,430 --> 00:12:38,160
if you're going to put a man uh you know

281
00:12:43,850 --> 00:12:40,440
a six foot man or a six and a half foot

282
00:12:46,190 --> 00:12:43,860
man into a suit even even to find a suit

283
00:12:49,009 --> 00:12:46,200
for a six and a half foot man would be

284
00:12:51,370 --> 00:12:49,019
uh would be problematic but what you

285
00:12:55,009 --> 00:12:51,380
would do then is that would be a female

286
00:12:58,850 --> 00:12:55,019
Sasquatch smaller height right and the

287
00:13:01,610 --> 00:12:58,860
reports which Patterson had

288
00:13:06,350 --> 00:13:01,620
had depicted in his book the reports

289
00:13:09,170 --> 00:13:06,360
namely the Austin abduction report and

290
00:13:13,490 --> 00:13:09,180
the William Rowe uh encounter which is

291
00:13:17,329 --> 00:13:13,500
just an iconic classic daytime uh very

292
00:13:21,290 --> 00:13:17,339
uh careful observation uh both made

293
00:13:23,889 --> 00:13:21,300
mention of uh pendula's breasts and so

294
00:13:27,949 --> 00:13:23,899
you know I mean it would have taken some

295
00:13:32,150 --> 00:13:27,959
clever reverse engineering now to flip

296
00:13:34,850 --> 00:13:32,160
back to the the protagonist side uh and

297
00:13:38,629 --> 00:13:34,860
in fact uh you know Bill well first of

298
00:13:42,530 --> 00:13:38,639
all let's Philip Morris the the uh

299
00:13:47,150 --> 00:13:42,540
supposed costume maker uh have a costume

300
00:13:49,430 --> 00:13:47,160
in stock with with uh breasts in fact

301
00:13:53,930 --> 00:13:49,440
all of his costumes have the bare

302
00:13:57,110 --> 00:13:53,940
chested gorilla like uh uh anatomy and

303
00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:57,120
so when when they were challenged he and

304
00:14:03,829 --> 00:14:00,720
and Bob Hieronymus who claimed one of

305
00:14:05,569 --> 00:14:03,839
the claimants in the suit to having been

306
00:14:06,350 --> 00:14:05,579
in the suit

307
00:14:09,829 --> 00:14:06,360
um

308
00:14:13,850 --> 00:14:09,839
Morris kind of reverse engineered and

309
00:14:15,650 --> 00:14:13,860
and attached hairy breasts to one of his

310
00:14:18,829 --> 00:14:15,660
costumes and I mean it looks ridiculous

311
00:14:21,350 --> 00:14:18,839
it just looks looks really silly but

312
00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:21,360
more fascinating from an anatomical

313
00:14:27,170 --> 00:14:24,240
point of view is is the study that uh

314
00:14:29,329 --> 00:14:27,180
Bill Munns and I I helped in a small way

315
00:14:31,490 --> 00:14:29,339
helped to facilitate the funding of it

316
00:14:32,870 --> 00:14:31,500
that was significant I didn't or it

317
00:14:35,690 --> 00:14:32,880
could be I wasn't able to participate

318
00:14:37,850 --> 00:14:35,700
directly in the the research but with

319
00:14:41,449 --> 00:14:37,860
the um there's this really interesting

320
00:14:43,430 --> 00:14:41,459
little segment of the film where

321
00:14:46,610 --> 00:14:43,440
um you know how if you're walking down

322
00:14:48,650 --> 00:14:46,620
the sidewalk and and by chance one of

323
00:14:50,329 --> 00:14:48,660
the squares of the cement is a little

324
00:14:52,550 --> 00:14:50,339
bit you know could only be a quarter of

325
00:14:55,970 --> 00:14:52,560
an inch lower but it's lower than you

326
00:14:58,730 --> 00:14:55,980
expect and you anticipate and so instead

327
00:15:01,129 --> 00:14:58,740
of reaching the cement as you step you

328
00:15:03,769 --> 00:15:01,139
have an extra quarter half inch and it

329
00:15:06,769 --> 00:15:03,779
gives you that jolting jar that rattles

330
00:15:09,230 --> 00:15:06,779
your spine and brain well there's

331
00:15:11,990 --> 00:15:09,240
there's a spot in the film where that

332
00:15:15,410 --> 00:15:12,000
happens to daddy she's walking on The

333
00:15:18,530 --> 00:15:15,420
Sandbar and you can see that jolt and

334
00:15:21,290 --> 00:15:18,540
the shock wave travels literally up her

335
00:15:24,290 --> 00:15:21,300
leg through that soft tissue all the way

336
00:15:27,889 --> 00:15:24,300
up until it hits the breasts and the

337
00:15:30,050 --> 00:15:27,899
breast compresses expands laterally and

338
00:15:32,870 --> 00:15:30,060
then rebounds back to its original shape

339
00:15:38,269 --> 00:15:32,880
and then in a remarkably natural way now

340
00:15:40,189 --> 00:15:38,279
Bill munz poses that if faced with the

341
00:15:42,590 --> 00:15:40,199
prospect of

342
00:15:45,230 --> 00:15:42,600
creating these breasts

343
00:15:48,230 --> 00:15:45,240
life-like breasts on this costume there

344
00:15:50,509 --> 00:15:48,240
were only so many options open to a

345
00:15:52,129 --> 00:15:50,519
costume designer you could just fill it

346
00:15:53,629 --> 00:15:52,139
with fluff then it would certainly

347
00:15:56,569 --> 00:15:53,639
wouldn't behave with any weight or

348
00:15:58,250 --> 00:15:56,579
inertia or you could as was commonly

349
00:16:01,490 --> 00:15:58,260
done you could fill it with something

350
00:16:06,410 --> 00:16:01,500
like rice or a grain or pellets you know

351
00:16:08,689 --> 00:16:06,420
BBS or you could use some kind of a you

352
00:16:11,569 --> 00:16:08,699
know polystyrene or something a an

353
00:16:16,310 --> 00:16:11,579
expansion foam just a fill that could be

354
00:16:20,090 --> 00:16:16,320
sculpted and fill the the space or you

355
00:16:21,710 --> 00:16:20,100
could use water balloons and that you

356
00:16:23,509 --> 00:16:21,720
know the latter would be the most likely

357
00:16:27,850 --> 00:16:23,519
but even that that's almost too much

358
00:16:31,850 --> 00:16:27,860
weight right too much sloshing around

359
00:16:35,569 --> 00:16:31,860
that uh so uh he actually we we've

360
00:16:39,290 --> 00:16:35,579
published a study together using

361
00:16:41,930 --> 00:16:39,300
um models human human subject models to

362
00:16:43,730 --> 00:16:41,940
demonstrate that that Dynamic that

363
00:16:46,249 --> 00:16:43,740
action of the compression of the breast

364
00:16:48,769 --> 00:16:46,259
tissue with the jolt he devised an

365
00:16:51,530 --> 00:16:48,779
apparatus that would when you'd stand on

366
00:16:53,210 --> 00:16:51,540
it then pull the release it would drop a

367
00:16:55,009 --> 00:16:53,220
quarter of an inch just enough to create

368
00:16:57,290 --> 00:16:55,019
that little bit of shock wave and then

369
00:16:59,990 --> 00:16:57,300
with high speed film actually document

370
00:17:02,090 --> 00:17:00,000
that that compression that shock wave

371
00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:02,100
going up through the through the Torso

372
00:17:06,169 --> 00:17:04,079
and the compression of the breast issue

373
00:17:09,169 --> 00:17:06,179
and made comparisons to other different

374
00:17:10,970 --> 00:17:09,179
attempts to fabricate breast tissue and

375
00:17:12,650 --> 00:17:10,980
you know there's no comparison I mean

376
00:17:16,010 --> 00:17:12,660
it's just nothing even the water bullets

377
00:17:18,110 --> 00:17:16,020
it just doesn't it doesn't compare so

378
00:17:21,049 --> 00:17:18,120
that's published by the way in The Relic

379
00:17:23,390 --> 00:17:21,059
hominoid inquiry which is an online

380
00:17:25,970 --> 00:17:23,400
Journal put a plug-in for it here an

381
00:17:28,429 --> 00:17:25,980
online Journal that that I edit with the

382
00:17:31,070 --> 00:17:28,439
assistance of a of a full editorial

383
00:17:32,630 --> 00:17:31,080
board we're in about the 12th year of

384
00:17:33,610 --> 00:17:32,640
publishing

385
00:17:36,409 --> 00:17:33,620
um

386
00:17:39,470 --> 00:17:36,419
academic peer-reviewed articles

387
00:17:43,130 --> 00:17:39,480
and this was one study that that was

388
00:17:44,810 --> 00:17:43,140
included in the content what was the

389
00:17:47,270 --> 00:17:44,820
other individual you said I want to look

390
00:17:51,470 --> 00:17:47,280
up uh Beyond uh Albert Osman the other

391
00:17:53,630 --> 00:17:51,480
one you said William Rowe exciting yeah

392
00:17:55,909 --> 00:17:53,640
William Rowe and this is one of those

393
00:17:58,490 --> 00:17:55,919
early and and it's a fascinating

394
00:17:59,870 --> 00:17:58,500
description because it was so early you

395
00:18:03,470 --> 00:17:59,880
know these days there's so much

396
00:18:06,289 --> 00:18:03,480
portrayed on uh cable television and on

397
00:18:08,930 --> 00:18:06,299
the internet social media there's so

398
00:18:12,169 --> 00:18:08,940
many I mean now it's the all the AI

399
00:18:13,789 --> 00:18:12,179
generated uh concoctions of what

400
00:18:17,390 --> 00:18:13,799
Sasquatch or Bigfoot might look like

401
00:18:23,690 --> 00:18:17,400
that that the image that people have is

402
00:18:27,470 --> 00:18:23,700
is readily uh accessible uh back in in

403
00:18:30,710 --> 00:18:27,480
the 1940s and 50s you know there was no

404
00:18:34,909 --> 00:18:30,720
pattern for a person like William Rowe

405
00:18:36,770 --> 00:18:34,919
to describe a creature that is yet still

406
00:18:39,409 --> 00:18:36,780
so remarkably similar to what

407
00:18:41,870 --> 00:18:39,419
eyewitnesses are seeing today and what

408
00:18:45,529 --> 00:18:41,880
we see on the Patterson gimlin film you

409
00:18:49,130 --> 00:18:45,539
know I I so I find those pre-internet

410
00:18:50,450 --> 00:18:49,140
uh descriptions to be very compelling

411
00:18:53,270 --> 00:18:50,460
um because they just you know they

412
00:18:54,770 --> 00:18:53,280
weren't comparing notes right copying

413
00:18:57,169 --> 00:18:54,780
off of something they heard on a podcast

414
00:18:59,630 --> 00:18:57,179
and say hey I'm gonna fashion my story a

415
00:19:01,370 --> 00:18:59,640
lot like that I I totally get that I

416
00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:01,380
just want to ask I'm just supposed to

417
00:19:06,230 --> 00:19:03,360
add and even and the other Pitfall is

418
00:19:09,409 --> 00:19:06,240
that even sincere Witnesses

419
00:19:11,029 --> 00:19:09,419
they can have a preconception and if

420
00:19:13,370 --> 00:19:11,039
they saw something even if it's a

421
00:19:16,250 --> 00:19:13,380
glimpse their brain already has this

422
00:19:20,570 --> 00:19:16,260
template in their in mind and it's easy

423
00:19:22,610 --> 00:19:20,580
to fill in the gaps to to recall details

424
00:19:26,870 --> 00:19:22,620
that were never observed but that were

425
00:19:28,909 --> 00:19:26,880
already planted in in one's mind and the

426
00:19:31,669 --> 00:19:28,919
Brain just readily gloms onto that to

427
00:19:34,250 --> 00:19:31,679
fill in the gaps to create an expected

428
00:19:37,730 --> 00:19:34,260
narrative that makes sense

429
00:19:39,529 --> 00:19:37,740
and that that does make sense in total

430
00:19:41,930 --> 00:19:39,539
um I want to ask from a behavioral

431
00:19:44,270 --> 00:19:41,940
standpoint did you get you know she was

432
00:19:48,049 --> 00:19:44,280
bending down having a drink I think is

433
00:19:50,810 --> 00:19:48,059
what those guys thought did from from a

434
00:19:53,510 --> 00:19:50,820
primate behavioral standpoint

435
00:19:56,450 --> 00:19:53,520
um do you do you glean anything that she

436
00:19:58,909 --> 00:19:56,460
didn't bring young ones down there to to

437
00:20:01,010 --> 00:19:58,919
the water line with her or that she was

438
00:20:03,049 --> 00:20:01,020
by herself does that trigger anything

439
00:20:05,150 --> 00:20:03,059
for you well yeah there's there's

440
00:20:07,070 --> 00:20:05,160
several possibilities and we're kind of

441
00:20:09,770 --> 00:20:07,080
you know getting out on the on the

442
00:20:13,490 --> 00:20:09,780
branch a little bit here but but the

443
00:20:17,150 --> 00:20:13,500
fact that she seemed to have been in

444
00:20:19,029 --> 00:20:17,160
company if if my inclination is correct

445
00:20:22,549 --> 00:20:19,039
that those those tracks that were

446
00:20:26,210 --> 00:20:22,559
documented the month prior were hers

447
00:20:30,049 --> 00:20:26,220
included hers then she had some um

448
00:20:33,409 --> 00:20:30,059
presumably some dependent or or

449
00:20:37,730 --> 00:20:33,419
or otherwise Offspring with her

450
00:20:39,830 --> 00:20:37,740
um and it's even been suggested that she

451
00:20:42,950 --> 00:20:39,840
might have recently given birth if you

452
00:20:46,390 --> 00:20:42,960
notice there on that image she has a

453
00:20:49,730 --> 00:20:46,400
little bit of a of a lap over her waist

454
00:20:52,669 --> 00:20:49,740
which the critics argue is you know it's

455
00:20:54,830 --> 00:20:52,679
a belt cinched with a costume shirt

456
00:20:57,590 --> 00:20:54,840
hanging over the edge but it just goes

457
00:21:01,549 --> 00:20:57,600
around perfectly to the side of the

458
00:21:05,350 --> 00:21:01,559
midriff which is how the excessive belly

459
00:21:09,950 --> 00:21:05,360
skin postpartum immediately following

460
00:21:11,870 --> 00:21:09,960
childbirth would would appear also the

461
00:21:15,470 --> 00:21:11,880
breasts are very prominent they're not

462
00:21:18,049 --> 00:21:15,480
always described as prominent in um in

463
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:18,059
eyewitness accounts I mean it strikes me

464
00:21:23,570 --> 00:21:20,400
that she could be lactating that could

465
00:21:25,610 --> 00:21:23,580
be postpartum engorgement even of of the

466
00:21:28,370 --> 00:21:25,620
breasts and that she has recently given

467
00:21:32,029 --> 00:21:28,380
birth which might be why

468
00:21:35,810 --> 00:21:32,039
there were some young or dependent

469
00:21:37,549 --> 00:21:35,820
Offspring with her or uh you know even

470
00:21:39,470 --> 00:21:37,559
if they were not were not entirely

471
00:21:42,350 --> 00:21:39,480
dependent they were there

472
00:21:45,049 --> 00:21:42,360
to uh lend assist it's got the Midwifery

473
00:21:47,690 --> 00:21:45,059
kind of model in other words and it's

474
00:21:50,169 --> 00:21:47,700
been suggested that her behavior of

475
00:21:54,230 --> 00:21:50,179
walking through this open

476
00:21:56,210 --> 00:21:54,240
uh stretch of the creek bed in full view

477
00:21:59,690 --> 00:21:56,220
of these men on horseback

478
00:22:02,690 --> 00:21:59,700
when she could have uh you know made a

479
00:22:04,430 --> 00:22:02,700
beeline to that tree line and gone up

480
00:22:06,830 --> 00:22:04,440
that I mean she's quite capable of

481
00:22:10,669 --> 00:22:06,840
scaling up that steep Mountain slope

482
00:22:13,430 --> 00:22:10,679
through that brush and and Deadfall

483
00:22:15,770 --> 00:22:13,440
um but instead she seems to attempt to

484
00:22:18,830 --> 00:22:15,780
lead them down the

485
00:22:21,710 --> 00:22:18,840
um down the path there and it's many

486
00:22:23,990 --> 00:22:21,720
have have suggested that it's the uh you

487
00:22:26,330 --> 00:22:24,000
know the broken bird wing

488
00:22:30,250 --> 00:22:26,340
um model where they're she's trying to

489
00:22:33,470 --> 00:22:30,260
lead them away from her Offspring maybe

490
00:22:36,950 --> 00:22:33,480
is you know uh sequestered with one of

491
00:22:39,830 --> 00:22:36,960
these uh some adults somewhere now those

492
00:22:42,529 --> 00:22:39,840
who visited the site

493
00:22:46,130 --> 00:22:42,539
you know but in addition to Roger and

494
00:22:48,950 --> 00:22:46,140
Bob they they only witnessed uh one set

495
00:22:51,890 --> 00:22:48,960
of footprints and others like

496
00:22:55,130 --> 00:22:51,900
um Bob titmus obviously as an ex

497
00:22:57,529 --> 00:22:55,140
excellent tracker and uh studied the

498
00:23:00,830 --> 00:22:57,539
area very very carefully yeah shortly

499
00:23:04,310 --> 00:23:00,840
afterwards uh about a little more than a

500
00:23:05,830 --> 00:23:04,320
week about 10 days two weeks and he said

501
00:23:08,930 --> 00:23:05,840
there was no sign of any other

502
00:23:11,450 --> 00:23:08,940
Footprints so if they were there she

503
00:23:14,029 --> 00:23:11,460
must have been separated from them some

504
00:23:16,909 --> 00:23:14,039
distance uh it's not like they were just

505
00:23:19,549 --> 00:23:16,919
hiding down behind the wall okay the

506
00:23:22,970 --> 00:23:19,559
immediate side but but those are you

507
00:23:25,010 --> 00:23:22,980
know interesting angles that aren't out

508
00:23:27,590 --> 00:23:25,020
of the realm of possibility

509
00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:27,600
uh I mean what what is important to me

510
00:23:35,210 --> 00:23:31,200
is the fact that whatever transpired was

511
00:23:40,909 --> 00:23:35,220
very spontaneous and was

512
00:23:42,770 --> 00:23:40,919
um uh you know a a one one take one uh

513
00:23:45,590 --> 00:23:42,780
you know because you can imagine if

514
00:23:47,330 --> 00:23:45,600
somebody you know they they stumble they

515
00:23:50,029 --> 00:23:47,340
they say oh let me do that one more time

516
00:23:53,090 --> 00:23:50,039
and of course all that would leave a

517
00:23:58,549 --> 00:23:55,430
um I had the opportunity to visit with

518
00:23:59,750 --> 00:23:58,559
uh Lyle laverty Lyle was a Timber

519
00:24:03,230 --> 00:23:59,760
Cruiser

520
00:24:06,190 --> 00:24:03,240
at the time had a summer crew they were

521
00:24:09,409 --> 00:24:06,200
marking some of the timber for Salvage

522
00:24:11,029 --> 00:24:09,419
uh because of all that down Timbers

523
00:24:13,370 --> 00:24:11,039
result of the flood

524
00:24:15,169 --> 00:24:13,380
they were working in that area they were

525
00:24:17,690 --> 00:24:15,179
in town for the weekend they'd already

526
00:24:19,970 --> 00:24:17,700
left you know Friday Saturday Sunday in

527
00:24:21,169 --> 00:24:19,980
Willow Creek just you know doing their

528
00:24:25,070 --> 00:24:21,179
business and

529
00:24:28,310 --> 00:24:25,080
and but they got wind of the

530
00:24:31,549 --> 00:24:28,320
um the brouhaha over this film

531
00:24:33,310 --> 00:24:31,559
and uh heard heard stories told about it

532
00:24:37,549 --> 00:24:33,320
and said

533
00:24:40,250 --> 00:24:37,559
he didn't meet up with the Roger and Bob

534
00:24:42,110 --> 00:24:40,260
to my knowledge but he he uh in

535
00:24:44,029 --> 00:24:42,120
disgusting with this Crew He said that's

536
00:24:47,029 --> 00:24:44,039
really close to where we were camped

537
00:24:49,310 --> 00:24:47,039
before and so they went back and sure

538
00:24:53,870 --> 00:24:49,320
enough they found

539
00:24:58,190 --> 00:24:53,880
um the film site and um Lyle uh

540
00:25:00,230 --> 00:24:58,200
photographed uh with the color slides a

541
00:25:02,870 --> 00:25:00,240
number of the footprints

542
00:25:04,549 --> 00:25:02,880
and he went on through the forest

543
00:25:07,610 --> 00:25:04,559
service became number two in the forest

544
00:25:11,570 --> 00:25:07,620
service eventually he when he retired he

545
00:25:13,850 --> 00:25:11,580
was the director of uh of parks in the

546
00:25:15,890 --> 00:25:13,860
state of Colorado I had a chance to talk

547
00:25:17,450 --> 00:25:15,900
to him over the phone and that was the

548
00:25:20,450 --> 00:25:17,460
first question I asked him I said well

549
00:25:23,450 --> 00:25:20,460
when you arrived and looked I mean what

550
00:25:25,250 --> 00:25:23,460
did you see what was your impression and

551
00:25:27,289 --> 00:25:25,260
you know he described how the the

552
00:25:32,269 --> 00:25:27,299
footprints were deeply impressed in that

553
00:25:35,090 --> 00:25:32,279
in that slatey Sandy bank and there were

554
00:25:37,490 --> 00:25:35,100
horse hoof prints all over cowboy boots

555
00:25:39,710 --> 00:25:37,500
where clearly they had

556
00:25:42,049 --> 00:25:39,720
gone all over the place examining and

557
00:25:43,690 --> 00:25:42,059
filming the tracks and and then he said

558
00:25:46,130 --> 00:25:43,700
there was evidences of the plaster

559
00:25:48,409 --> 00:25:46,140
casting of the footprints and I said

560
00:25:52,010 --> 00:25:48,419
well was there anything to suggest other

561
00:25:53,210 --> 00:25:52,020
than what was described and what you've

562
00:25:57,310 --> 00:25:53,220
just described him was there any

563
00:26:00,169 --> 00:25:57,320
evidence of of circling back and repeat

564
00:26:01,930 --> 00:26:00,179
sets of footprints and he said no no it

565
00:26:04,789 --> 00:26:01,940
was just all very

566
00:26:08,090 --> 00:26:04,799
described yeah one linear event

567
00:26:11,630 --> 00:26:08,100
and uh that that was I think really

568
00:26:13,909 --> 00:26:11,640
significant the fact that and then and

569
00:26:17,029 --> 00:26:13,919
then the uh the tracks that he

570
00:26:19,430 --> 00:26:17,039
photographed included a number of the

571
00:26:22,730 --> 00:26:19,440
tracks that Bob titman's cast when he

572
00:26:26,269 --> 00:26:22,740
came down 10 days after the fact he cast

573
00:26:29,029 --> 00:26:26,279
10 Footprints uh in succession

574
00:26:30,950 --> 00:26:29,039
regardless of their quality whereas

575
00:26:33,049 --> 00:26:30,960
Roger had looked for the cleanest

576
00:26:37,370 --> 00:26:33,059
clearest right and left

577
00:26:39,409 --> 00:26:37,380
so so clean and clear and flat that when

578
00:26:41,390 --> 00:26:39,419
they were examined by the experts they

579
00:26:43,970 --> 00:26:41,400
looked like carved like they've been

580
00:26:45,169 --> 00:26:43,980
made by carved wooden planes right they

581
00:26:47,450 --> 00:26:45,179
were flat they were features you know

582
00:26:50,090 --> 00:26:47,460
and they were expecting Contours of an

583
00:26:53,149 --> 00:26:50,100
arch and and differential pressure under

584
00:26:56,510 --> 00:26:53,159
the heel and the ball of the foot and

585
00:27:00,169 --> 00:26:56,520
that wasn't present and so that made

586
00:27:02,570 --> 00:27:00,179
them because again they were expecting a

587
00:27:05,269 --> 00:27:02,580
certain appearance when it didn't fit

588
00:27:08,870 --> 00:27:05,279
that expectation they dismissed it as a

589
00:27:11,510 --> 00:27:08,880
hoax so titmus did a great service and

590
00:27:14,630 --> 00:27:11,520
that when combined with the confirmation

591
00:27:17,029 --> 00:27:14,640
of the photos by Lyle laverty in his

592
00:27:18,890 --> 00:27:17,039
testimony just really I mean it's well

593
00:27:20,210 --> 00:27:18,900
documented

594
00:27:22,190 --> 00:27:20,220
um

595
00:27:23,810 --> 00:27:22,200
uh piece of evidence so much so that

596
00:27:27,230 --> 00:27:23,820
when I

597
00:27:31,070 --> 00:27:27,240
kind of went out on the limb and bucked

598
00:27:33,789 --> 00:27:31,080
but the guidelines just a little bit and

599
00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:33,799
there's there's a system of

600
00:27:41,269 --> 00:27:37,200
nomenclature called ignotaxonomy which

601
00:27:45,950 --> 00:27:41,279
is applying the scientific name to uh

602
00:27:49,070 --> 00:27:45,960
fossilized tracks or traces uh sign of

603
00:27:51,769 --> 00:27:49,080
the track maker where the track Maker's

604
00:27:54,350 --> 00:27:51,779
Bones have not yet been found

605
00:27:55,990 --> 00:27:54,360
so in other words it's a means to

606
00:27:58,970 --> 00:27:56,000
catalog

607
00:28:02,810 --> 00:27:58,980
Footprints and and and other kinds of

608
00:28:06,710 --> 00:28:02,820
traces uh dens and Burrows and so forth

609
00:28:08,390 --> 00:28:06,720
but primarily Footprints of animals uh

610
00:28:10,490 --> 00:28:08,400
that we don't know really what the what

611
00:28:14,810 --> 00:28:10,500
the track maker is but we want to have a

612
00:28:17,690 --> 00:28:14,820
handle a label as to which we can attach

613
00:28:20,269 --> 00:28:17,700
a diagnosis a different a description

614
00:28:22,850 --> 00:28:20,279
and differential diagnosis how do these

615
00:28:25,669 --> 00:28:22,860
differ from other tracks and it allows

616
00:28:27,470 --> 00:28:25,679
you to study and compare and analyze

617
00:28:30,830 --> 00:28:27,480
these well

618
00:28:33,289 --> 00:28:30,840
we have here a case not fossilized and

619
00:28:36,230 --> 00:28:33,299
there are there's some some uh

620
00:28:38,269 --> 00:28:36,240
curmudgeons who uh who have made a big

621
00:28:40,730 --> 00:28:38,279
deal about that I get such a kick out of

622
00:28:42,769 --> 00:28:40,740
some of these Skeptics you know they'll

623
00:28:45,710 --> 00:28:42,779
yeah they'll rake you over the coals

624
00:28:48,830 --> 00:28:45,720
because you have you have violated the

625
00:28:50,870 --> 00:28:48,840
uh the guideline but will they actually

626
00:28:53,510 --> 00:28:50,880
engage the footprints will they actually

627
00:28:56,690 --> 00:28:53,520
criticize the footprints no I mean other

628
00:28:58,730 --> 00:28:56,700
than to than to pronounce them hoax but

629
00:29:02,269 --> 00:28:58,740
but um

630
00:29:03,950 --> 00:29:02,279
so we we've got the um the situation

631
00:29:04,930 --> 00:29:03,960
where we have these tracks but we don't

632
00:29:09,049 --> 00:29:04,940
have

633
00:29:11,390 --> 00:29:09,059
the um track maker yeah acknowledge or

634
00:29:13,909 --> 00:29:11,400
recognize I mean we suspect obviously

635
00:29:15,529 --> 00:29:13,919
don't we but in the case uh of the

636
00:29:18,889 --> 00:29:15,539
Patterson gimlin film I mean this week

637
00:29:20,570 --> 00:29:18,899
we do have this kind of uh validation or

638
00:29:23,930 --> 00:29:20,580
corroboration let's put it that way

639
00:29:25,310 --> 00:29:23,940
corroboration of of the footprints well

640
00:29:30,769 --> 00:29:25,320
documented

641
00:29:33,169 --> 00:29:30,779
um casts uh molds of which now reside in

642
00:29:36,409 --> 00:29:33,179
the smithsonian's special collections of

643
00:29:38,210 --> 00:29:36,419
the Department of anthropology so and

644
00:29:40,970 --> 00:29:38,220
the other the original cast of Bob

645
00:29:44,210 --> 00:29:40,980
titmus are accessioned in the Willow

646
00:29:45,669 --> 00:29:44,220
Creek China Flats Museum which is a

647
00:29:47,750 --> 00:29:45,679
certified

648
00:29:52,430 --> 00:29:47,760
accredited Museum

649
00:29:53,510 --> 00:29:52,440
and so uh so that uh that uh criteria

650
00:29:56,810 --> 00:29:53,520
was met

651
00:29:59,630 --> 00:29:56,820
by that fact and then I I floated this

652
00:30:02,210 --> 00:29:59,640
idea I was encouraged by a couple of of

653
00:30:08,470 --> 00:30:02,220
uh colleagues who are

654
00:30:11,510 --> 00:30:08,480
um uh very uh renowned in circles uh the

655
00:30:14,750 --> 00:30:11,520
igno-taxonomy uh or acknology the study

656
00:30:16,610 --> 00:30:14,760
of fossilized traces and

657
00:30:21,049 --> 00:30:16,620
um and they encouraged me to go ahead

658
00:30:24,769 --> 00:30:21,059
and give this a shot and so I described

659
00:30:29,210 --> 00:30:24,779
it and presented it at a symposium a

660
00:30:31,610 --> 00:30:29,220
special conference at the um uh New

661
00:30:34,190 --> 00:30:31,620
Mexico Museum of Natural History it was

662
00:30:36,850 --> 00:30:34,200
a special conference on cenozoic tracks

663
00:30:39,350 --> 00:30:36,860
and traces so the tracks and traces of

664
00:30:44,090 --> 00:30:39,360
particularly mammals but also birds and

665
00:30:48,769 --> 00:30:44,100
reptiles and so forth that uh have have

666
00:30:49,549 --> 00:30:48,779
gone extinct during the last era and

667
00:30:53,810 --> 00:30:49,559
um

668
00:30:55,750 --> 00:30:53,820
you know to a room of 75 plus World

669
00:30:58,789 --> 00:30:55,760
experts you know International

670
00:31:01,010 --> 00:30:58,799
representation World experts on the

671
00:31:04,310 --> 00:31:01,020
interpretation of fossilized tracks and

672
00:31:07,130 --> 00:31:04,320
traces of of every type of mammal you

673
00:31:09,649 --> 00:31:07,140
can imagine and and uh

674
00:31:12,289 --> 00:31:09,659
to to tremendous

675
00:31:14,389 --> 00:31:12,299
um interest and support and enthusiasm I

676
00:31:17,450 --> 00:31:14,399
mean there was one curmudgeon and he

677
00:31:19,250 --> 00:31:17,460
kept making these really silly silly uh

678
00:31:20,750 --> 00:31:19,260
quips and comments about it until

679
00:31:23,350 --> 00:31:20,760
finally the other members of the

680
00:31:28,190 --> 00:31:23,360
audience told him to sit down and

681
00:31:30,830 --> 00:31:28,200
quit quit spouting but I I had brought a

682
00:31:34,250 --> 00:31:30,840
sampling of actual cast there's

683
00:31:36,889 --> 00:31:34,260
something about holding and examining a

684
00:31:38,389 --> 00:31:36,899
physical cast that's that is a totally

685
00:31:41,389 --> 00:31:38,399
different experience than seeing

686
00:31:43,669 --> 00:31:41,399
something up on the uh rejected screen

687
00:31:46,190 --> 00:31:43,679
or even in a book or a television

688
00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:46,200
and so they had the opportunity to do

689
00:31:50,330 --> 00:31:48,480
that as well as a result of the

690
00:31:51,909 --> 00:31:50,340
conversation discussion that ensued

691
00:31:56,090 --> 00:31:51,919
thereafter

692
00:32:00,649 --> 00:31:56,100
I was invited to submit a manuscript for

693
00:32:03,350 --> 00:32:00,659
publication in the uh bulletin of the um

694
00:32:05,210 --> 00:32:03,360
of the New Mexico Museum of Natural

695
00:32:08,090 --> 00:32:05,220
History the proceedings of this

696
00:32:10,610 --> 00:32:08,100
Symposium and it was reviewed by five

697
00:32:15,289 --> 00:32:10,620
reviewers not two and not three but five

698
00:32:17,690 --> 00:32:15,299
who all came down very positively

699
00:32:22,190 --> 00:32:17,700
um gave it a thumbs up and so it is

700
00:32:26,210 --> 00:32:22,200
published and you know so it um

701
00:32:29,149 --> 00:32:26,220
it I think it it demonstrates very well

702
00:32:32,149 --> 00:32:29,159
how the evidence of the Patterson gimlin

703
00:32:34,370 --> 00:32:32,159
film stands up under scrutiny I mean

704
00:32:36,649 --> 00:32:34,380
I've often said If I Only Had the

705
00:32:39,169 --> 00:32:36,659
footprints documented at that film site

706
00:32:42,110 --> 00:32:39,179
and didn't even have the film to look at

707
00:32:47,090 --> 00:32:42,120
I'd be convinced of The credibility of

708
00:32:49,730 --> 00:32:47,100
Bob and Roger's encounter I heard I

709
00:32:51,789 --> 00:32:49,740
heard you say that but even what's up

710
00:32:54,350 --> 00:32:51,799
man what's up Tim

711
00:32:58,250 --> 00:32:54,360
welcome brother

712
00:32:59,750 --> 00:32:58,260
um but even you know that what you

713
00:33:01,310 --> 00:32:59,760
talked about with the traps and the

714
00:33:03,710 --> 00:33:01,320
muscles in the back moving I don't know

715
00:33:05,870 --> 00:33:03,720
if it was MK Davis's version there's a

716
00:33:07,850 --> 00:33:05,880
couple versions out there where where

717
00:33:10,730 --> 00:33:07,860
you can see it quite close

718
00:33:12,710 --> 00:33:10,740
yeah I don't believe in 1967 you could

719
00:33:15,110 --> 00:33:12,720
have made a suit first of all that has

720
00:33:17,870 --> 00:33:15,120
that sort of musculature is very very

721
00:33:19,490 --> 00:33:17,880
uncommon okay you're you you would

722
00:33:21,710 --> 00:33:19,500
probably have to go all over Los Angeles

723
00:33:24,409 --> 00:33:21,720
and see if you could find one person

724
00:33:26,570 --> 00:33:24,419
that had traps that Rose off of those

725
00:33:29,210 --> 00:33:26,580
shoulders into the back of the neck and

726
00:33:31,549 --> 00:33:29,220
now to have that musculature moving in a

727
00:33:33,769 --> 00:33:31,559
dynamic fashion even 13 years later

728
00:33:36,470 --> 00:33:33,779
George Lucas with Chewbacca doesn't look

729
00:33:38,750 --> 00:33:36,480
anything like this no no no no and

730
00:33:41,750 --> 00:33:38,760
Chewbacca with its long hair I mean

731
00:33:44,570 --> 00:33:41,760
that's the strategy of the costume sure

732
00:33:47,630 --> 00:33:44,580
to hide it to hide it yeah to hide it

733
00:33:51,350 --> 00:33:47,640
you know they uh even um

734
00:33:53,750 --> 00:33:51,360
even the oh the Grinch the Grinch's

735
00:33:56,570 --> 00:33:53,760
costume the you know the worst thing is

736
00:33:59,269 --> 00:33:56,580
the neck because if you cover the neck

737
00:34:02,149 --> 00:33:59,279
then every time we have a very movable

738
00:34:05,149 --> 00:34:02,159
head and our neck has a range of motion

739
00:34:09,230 --> 00:34:05,159
which will throw any kind of fabric up

740
00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:09,240
into unnatural looking Folds and so uh

741
00:34:14,750 --> 00:34:11,760
for for the Grinch they just made it

742
00:34:17,690 --> 00:34:14,760
colorless a necklace costume that was

743
00:34:19,970 --> 00:34:17,700
Blended in here below painted the skin

744
00:34:22,190 --> 00:34:19,980
green and then he had chin whiskers that

745
00:34:24,770 --> 00:34:22,200
hung down which was the same thing they

746
00:34:28,129 --> 00:34:24,780
did for you know Chewbacca the Chewbacca

747
00:34:30,470 --> 00:34:28,139
and uh the Bigfoot on uh The Six Million

748
00:34:33,169 --> 00:34:30,480
Dollar Man they had a he had a big thick

749
00:34:35,750 --> 00:34:33,179
beard that covered up the neck it's just

750
00:34:38,750 --> 00:34:35,760
and still it's so funny if you if you're

751
00:34:41,510 --> 00:34:38,760
a connoisseur of these uh appearances of

752
00:34:43,790 --> 00:34:41,520
Bigfoot on the on the screen uh when the

753
00:34:46,849 --> 00:34:43,800
when the bionic Bigfoot and goes

754
00:34:50,270 --> 00:34:46,859
bouncing down the hill rolling with uh

755
00:34:56,869 --> 00:34:50,280
wrestling with with Lee Majors his shirt

756
00:35:01,130 --> 00:34:59,990
that it was pretty hilarious and of

757
00:35:03,290 --> 00:35:01,140
course then you could see the bottom of

758
00:35:05,690 --> 00:35:03,300
the feet too and how how ridiculously

759
00:35:07,430 --> 00:35:05,700
contrived they were but no this is the

760
00:35:10,010 --> 00:35:07,440
thing that people forget because we've

761
00:35:14,630 --> 00:35:10,020
got a you know a whole generation

762
00:35:18,710 --> 00:35:14,640
that were born much later than 1967 but

763
00:35:21,410 --> 00:35:18,720
in 1967 there was no four-way stretch

764
00:35:24,290 --> 00:35:21,420
for there was just fur cloth and it was

765
00:35:28,130 --> 00:35:24,300
like you know hairy cloth that that

766
00:35:30,589 --> 00:35:28,140
didn't have any give to it and so to to

767
00:35:33,710 --> 00:35:30,599
get it to fit it's not like pulling on

768
00:35:35,750 --> 00:35:33,720
yoga pants you know it's it's like

769
00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:35,760
pulling on trousers that'll have

770
00:35:40,849 --> 00:35:38,160
straight edges and will have folds and

771
00:35:43,970 --> 00:35:40,859
creases and and that doesn't conform

772
00:35:47,150 --> 00:35:43,980
unless you go to Great Lengths to tailor

773
00:35:50,270 --> 00:35:47,160
it to your specific actor now I always

774
00:35:54,050 --> 00:35:50,280
had a got a kick out of uh there was a

775
00:35:56,750 --> 00:35:54,060
British producer uh by the name of Chris

776
00:35:59,030 --> 00:35:56,760
Packham who really thought he was going

777
00:36:02,030 --> 00:35:59,040
to make them Splash and make a name make

778
00:36:02,930 --> 00:36:02,040
a mark by debunking the Patterson gimlin

779
00:36:05,270 --> 00:36:02,940
film

780
00:36:07,250 --> 00:36:05,280
and so there's this scene on in his

781
00:36:09,109 --> 00:36:07,260
documentary where he actually he's

782
00:36:12,410 --> 00:36:09,119
Consulting with some some of the members

783
00:36:15,589 --> 00:36:12,420
of Jim Henson's Creature Shop and so

784
00:36:18,410 --> 00:36:15,599
these guys should be in the know but uh

785
00:36:20,329 --> 00:36:18,420
so there there's in in the studio and

786
00:36:22,609 --> 00:36:20,339
they're looking at the Patterson gimlin

787
00:36:25,010 --> 00:36:22,619
film on a monitor and then I don't know

788
00:36:27,950 --> 00:36:25,020
it wasn't Jim Henson it was one of his

789
00:36:29,990 --> 00:36:27,960
uh of his Protege I guess and I can't

790
00:36:32,450 --> 00:36:30,000
think of his name now but he says oh yes

791
00:36:35,450 --> 00:36:32,460
you know this is obviously a costume and

792
00:36:38,030 --> 00:36:35,460
here's how we do it the camera pans and

793
00:36:40,849 --> 00:36:38,040
here's the actor donning a modern

794
00:36:42,790 --> 00:36:40,859
costume with four-way stretch fur but

795
00:36:45,050 --> 00:36:42,800
first he's pulling on a spandex

796
00:36:49,089 --> 00:36:45,060
undergarment that has

797
00:36:51,770 --> 00:36:49,099
sewn into it sculpted foam rubber

798
00:36:53,930 --> 00:36:51,780
musculature well now wait a minute they

799
00:36:56,690 --> 00:36:53,940
didn't have foam rubber readily

800
00:36:58,310 --> 00:36:56,700
available in 1967. that's a fairly

801
00:37:01,370 --> 00:36:58,320
recent Innovation you couldn't go down

802
00:37:02,990 --> 00:37:01,380
to Kmart and buy a foam mattress you

803
00:37:06,589 --> 00:37:03,000
know for your in-laws to sleep on when

804
00:37:08,870 --> 00:37:06,599
they come to visit they uh you know they

805
00:37:12,829 --> 00:37:08,880
we're just beginning to experiment with

806
00:37:15,290 --> 00:37:12,839
injected foam rubber in Hollywood when

807
00:37:17,630 --> 00:37:15,300
um you know John Chambers introduced

808
00:37:20,810 --> 00:37:17,640
this pioneering of a special effect of

809
00:37:23,810 --> 00:37:20,820
these molded facial appliances for

810
00:37:26,089 --> 00:37:23,820
Planet of the Apes and you got that one

811
00:37:28,490 --> 00:37:26,099
honorary Oscar they didn't actually have

812
00:37:30,050 --> 00:37:28,500
an Oscar in in that category but they

813
00:37:32,030 --> 00:37:30,060
you know at that time that they they

814
00:37:33,170 --> 00:37:32,040
gave him an acknowledgment for that

815
00:37:35,630 --> 00:37:33,180
remarkable

816
00:37:38,390 --> 00:37:35,640
and then yet look at the look at the

817
00:37:40,730 --> 00:37:38,400
results you know I mean not only the

818
00:37:44,329 --> 00:37:40,740
face but then you had these uh pencil

819
00:37:47,210 --> 00:37:44,339
necks big heads on a pencil neck which

820
00:37:50,390 --> 00:37:47,220
they covered up with a high uh leather

821
00:37:55,069 --> 00:37:50,400
collar on their tunic to hide the neck

822
00:37:57,410 --> 00:37:55,079
you know and and costumes I was a point

823
00:38:00,170 --> 00:37:57,420
people to the the sauna I think it's in

824
00:38:02,150 --> 00:38:00,180
the second in the second one uh Beneath

825
00:38:03,410 --> 00:38:02,160
the Planet of the Apes when

826
00:38:06,170 --> 00:38:03,420
um when they're having their little

827
00:38:08,750 --> 00:38:06,180
conference in the sauna and income these

828
00:38:10,730 --> 00:38:08,760
Apes with a towel around their waist and

829
00:38:12,589 --> 00:38:10,740
nothing else and they look like big

830
00:38:14,750 --> 00:38:12,599
hairy Pillsbury Doughboys you know

831
00:38:16,430 --> 00:38:14,760
whereas when they go out with their

832
00:38:20,630 --> 00:38:16,440
regular costume on they look like

833
00:38:23,210 --> 00:38:20,640
they're very you know very uh yeah

834
00:38:25,609 --> 00:38:23,220
yeah it's it's pretty absurd they try to

835
00:38:28,609 --> 00:38:25,619
uh we have the same uh we have people in

836
00:38:31,550 --> 00:38:28,619
the UFO Community trying to debunk uh

837
00:38:33,710 --> 00:38:31,560
multiple fighter pilots uh and a radar

838
00:38:35,690 --> 00:38:33,720
up and multiple radar operators that saw

839
00:38:37,430 --> 00:38:35,700
the Tic Tac so you have people they're

840
00:38:39,050 --> 00:38:37,440
gonna try to debunk no matter how good

841
00:38:40,670 --> 00:38:39,060
the evidences are gonna go this is fake

842
00:38:42,950 --> 00:38:40,680
and then you're gonna go you really

843
00:38:44,569 --> 00:38:42,960
sound like an idiot but that's okay

844
00:38:46,310 --> 00:38:44,579
um let me I gotta turn you over to Debs

845
00:38:48,890 --> 00:38:46,320
because we got to get a couple people in

846
00:38:50,329 --> 00:38:48,900
here so I don't use up all the oxygen in

847
00:38:52,970 --> 00:38:50,339
the room Deb so what do you have for Dr

848
00:38:56,870 --> 00:38:52,980
Meldrum man right so I actually got to

849
00:38:58,609 --> 00:38:56,880
see hi I got to see a really interesting

850
00:39:00,650 --> 00:38:58,619
um analysis of the video and they

851
00:39:03,410 --> 00:39:00,660
pointed out some other things about the

852
00:39:05,870 --> 00:39:03,420
fur and where it's matted and they also

853
00:39:08,329 --> 00:39:05,880
spoke about the facial features and what

854
00:39:10,250 --> 00:39:08,339
that might indicate about what kind of

855
00:39:11,810 --> 00:39:10,260
um being this is so I was wondering if

856
00:39:14,030 --> 00:39:11,820
you could speak to that

857
00:39:15,770 --> 00:39:14,040
yeah there's been a couple of different

858
00:39:18,530 --> 00:39:15,780
remarks if this is the one you're

859
00:39:21,410 --> 00:39:18,540
referring to about matted fur on the

860
00:39:23,030 --> 00:39:21,420
back side uh in in the area of the

861
00:39:25,690 --> 00:39:23,040
buttock and there's been all sorts of

862
00:39:27,410 --> 00:39:25,700
speculation about it the best imagery

863
00:39:32,630 --> 00:39:27,420
the best

864
00:39:35,569 --> 00:39:32,640
um uh uh almost optimized images shows a

865
00:39:38,329 --> 00:39:35,579
very normal Contour of the buttocks in

866
00:39:39,829 --> 00:39:38,339
fact I mean there's there in the in the

867
00:39:42,470 --> 00:39:39,839
initial

868
00:39:44,750 --> 00:39:42,480
segment that rarely gets shown on

869
00:39:47,750 --> 00:39:44,760
television because it's right in the

870
00:39:51,950 --> 00:39:47,760
middle of this gyrating

871
00:39:55,130 --> 00:39:51,960
camera sequence there's a point where

872
00:39:57,470 --> 00:39:55,140
the camera passes right over the lens is

873
00:39:59,450 --> 00:39:57,480
perfectly lined up with the subject and

874
00:40:01,550 --> 00:39:59,460
there's one frame that just jumps out

875
00:40:02,930 --> 00:40:01,560
because it's really in focus and it well

876
00:40:04,069 --> 00:40:02,940
I mean the whole thing's in Focus I

877
00:40:07,010 --> 00:40:04,079
don't mean when you say that it's

878
00:40:09,589 --> 00:40:07,020
there's minimal uh motion blur in that

879
00:40:12,349 --> 00:40:09,599
instant the only the only blurriness

880
00:40:14,089 --> 00:40:12,359
about the film is motion blur of the

881
00:40:16,550 --> 00:40:14,099
camera movement

882
00:40:18,109 --> 00:40:16,560
um because it's it's a fixed focal

883
00:40:21,050 --> 00:40:18,119
length lens it's not like he was

884
00:40:23,510 --> 00:40:21,060
required to focus on the image

885
00:40:27,170 --> 00:40:23,520
everything from two feet in front of the

886
00:40:29,150 --> 00:40:27,180
camera to Infinity is in Focus the thing

887
00:40:33,710 --> 00:40:29,160
what what people interpret is being

888
00:40:38,210 --> 00:40:33,720
blurry is the graininess of extreme

889
00:40:41,390 --> 00:40:38,220
enlargement of a film a portion of the

890
00:40:45,470 --> 00:40:41,400
film frame which is itself only 16 by 16

891
00:40:48,470 --> 00:40:45,480
millimeters and uh the subject on that

892
00:40:51,530 --> 00:40:48,480
that we're blowing up is 1.8 millimeters

893
00:40:54,829 --> 00:40:51,540
tall so you can imagine I mean people

894
00:40:57,109 --> 00:40:54,839
today don't understand grain it it would

895
00:41:00,290 --> 00:40:57,119
be analogous although different than

896
00:41:03,349 --> 00:41:00,300
pixels and if you enlarge a low

897
00:41:07,790 --> 00:41:03,359
resolution image too much it becomes

898
00:41:10,550 --> 00:41:07,800
pixelated right well grain describes the

899
00:41:14,810 --> 00:41:10,560
a little photographically you know light

900
00:41:17,690 --> 00:41:14,820
sensitive crystals on the film uh

901
00:41:20,930 --> 00:41:17,700
Emulsion that's that when exposed to

902
00:41:22,790 --> 00:41:20,940
light then and developed um you know

903
00:41:26,270 --> 00:41:22,800
captures the image

904
00:41:29,390 --> 00:41:26,280
if you increase the enlargement you

905
00:41:30,530 --> 00:41:29,400
start to see the individual discrete

906
00:41:33,290 --> 00:41:30,540
crystals

907
00:41:37,069 --> 00:41:33,300
and it actually was the best film that

908
00:41:38,930 --> 00:41:37,079
he could have chosen at that time and so

909
00:41:42,109 --> 00:41:38,940
you're able to blow it up and look at

910
00:41:44,750 --> 00:41:42,119
something like this I mean I have when I

911
00:41:47,930 --> 00:41:44,760
was a Youngster I uh and first saw the

912
00:41:49,430 --> 00:41:47,940
film shown in Spokane I immediately

913
00:41:50,690 --> 00:41:49,440
joined the Northwest research

914
00:41:53,690 --> 00:41:50,700
Association

915
00:41:59,410 --> 00:41:53,700
which was Roger's organization and the

916
00:42:02,530 --> 00:41:59,420
membership of dues and purchase of of uh

917
00:42:05,750 --> 00:42:02,540
photographic prints and casts helped

918
00:42:08,390 --> 00:42:05,760
hold it was hoped it would generate a

919
00:42:09,970 --> 00:42:08,400
revenue stream that Finance his search

920
00:42:13,910 --> 00:42:09,980
for the creature

921
00:42:17,030 --> 00:42:13,920
I purchased a 5x7 or membership brought

922
00:42:18,290 --> 00:42:17,040
a 5x7 color print that was a very early

923
00:42:21,050 --> 00:42:18,300
print

924
00:42:24,970 --> 00:42:21,060
uh for directly from the film presumably

925
00:42:28,370 --> 00:42:24,980
because you know the the

926
00:42:29,990 --> 00:42:28,380
quality the image is just astounding I

927
00:42:34,670 --> 00:42:30,000
mean most people who see this on

928
00:42:37,310 --> 00:42:34,680
television they see a licensed VHS copy

929
00:42:39,890 --> 00:42:37,320
of a copy that Mrs Patterson makes

930
00:42:43,430 --> 00:42:39,900
available and it's extremely deter I

931
00:42:46,190 --> 00:42:43,440
mean it's 50 years old now area rating

932
00:42:48,589 --> 00:42:46,200
and it's all washed out and it's

933
00:42:50,510 --> 00:42:48,599
scratched you know not the not the

934
00:42:53,990 --> 00:42:50,520
videotape but the film The copy that

935
00:42:55,490 --> 00:42:54,000
it's made from which the producers of

936
00:42:59,210 --> 00:42:55,500
the documentaries don't mind I mean it

937
00:43:00,069 --> 00:42:59,220
gives it that campy look you know that

938
00:43:05,270 --> 00:43:00,079
uh

939
00:43:07,190 --> 00:43:05,280
point is it's it's actually remarkably

940
00:43:09,109 --> 00:43:07,200
in focused all right I got off track so

941
00:43:12,230 --> 00:43:09,119
when you when you look at this one

942
00:43:13,790 --> 00:43:12,240
isolated image you get a really and and

943
00:43:16,130 --> 00:43:13,800
the subject is still fairly close

944
00:43:19,430 --> 00:43:16,140
because it was right on the edge of the

945
00:43:21,650 --> 00:43:19,440
creek and Roger has run Full Tilt across

946
00:43:26,089 --> 00:43:21,660
the creek taking this shooting as he's

947
00:43:28,790 --> 00:43:26,099
going and you can see the the um the

948
00:43:30,829 --> 00:43:28,800
buttocks the booty but really well uh

949
00:43:33,829 --> 00:43:30,839
the definition of the cheeks and the

950
00:43:36,050 --> 00:43:33,839
cleft and there's no matted feces

951
00:43:39,290 --> 00:43:36,060
there's no matted hair there's nothing

952
00:43:41,750 --> 00:43:39,300
there it's just the Shadow and then uh

953
00:43:44,510 --> 00:43:41,760
often misinterpreted the left hand as it

954
00:43:48,050 --> 00:43:44,520
swings back becomes partially visible

955
00:43:50,870 --> 00:43:48,060
just to the side and Below because of

956
00:43:55,250 --> 00:43:50,880
these very long arms below the buttock

957
00:43:58,250 --> 00:43:55,260
uh the the gluteal fold there underneath

958
00:44:02,809 --> 00:43:58,260
the buttock now some of even the hand is

959
00:44:05,089 --> 00:44:02,819
so enormous that the MK Davis has argued

960
00:44:07,190 --> 00:44:05,099
that it's holding something it has a it

961
00:44:09,349 --> 00:44:07,200
has a Leather Pouch or a satchel or

962
00:44:11,150 --> 00:44:09,359
something in its hand that it's carrying

963
00:44:14,690 --> 00:44:11,160
and it's not it's the hand

964
00:44:18,170 --> 00:44:14,700
simply the large palm of the of the hand

965
00:44:19,250 --> 00:44:18,180
and it Swings with the arm just as you

966
00:44:22,190 --> 00:44:19,260
would expect

967
00:44:24,650 --> 00:44:22,200
the facial features again

968
00:44:26,089 --> 00:44:24,660
many people are laboring under the

969
00:44:28,010 --> 00:44:26,099
misconception that you can't see

970
00:44:30,050 --> 00:44:28,020
anything

971
00:44:32,210 --> 00:44:30,060
um uh you know and there's one frame

972
00:44:35,569 --> 00:44:32,220
that has made the rounds and the history

973
00:44:38,329 --> 00:44:35,579
and its origin is still kind of in The

974
00:44:40,849 --> 00:44:38,339
Mists of uncertainty as to who did it or

975
00:44:44,450 --> 00:44:40,859
what it but it's it was one of these um

976
00:44:47,450 --> 00:44:44,460
Prints but it had been doctored whether

977
00:44:51,349 --> 00:44:47,460
it had been you know manually uh

978
00:44:54,829 --> 00:44:51,359
enhanced or redrawn or later a digital

979
00:44:56,390 --> 00:44:54,839
image had been had been altered it shows

980
00:44:58,370 --> 00:44:56,400
too much detail it's the one that has

981
00:45:01,670 --> 00:44:58,380
the big inverted lips

982
00:45:03,470 --> 00:45:01,680
and uh the broad very broad flattened

983
00:45:06,650 --> 00:45:03,480
nose

984
00:45:08,990 --> 00:45:06,660
um those details are not well those

985
00:45:11,089 --> 00:45:09,000
details aren't born out in any other

986
00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:11,099
frame of the film

987
00:45:16,309 --> 00:45:13,680
or and and the the better versions of

988
00:45:18,410 --> 00:45:16,319
the film it has a pretty lipless smile

989
00:45:21,230 --> 00:45:18,420
in fact the mouth is lower than where

990
00:45:23,870 --> 00:45:21,240
most people place it and the upper lip

991
00:45:27,290 --> 00:45:23,880
at one point she's

992
00:45:29,150 --> 00:45:27,300
um she's got a pout where the the lipid

993
00:45:31,190 --> 00:45:29,160
the lips are clenched and the upper lip

994
00:45:33,710 --> 00:45:31,200
very muscular is kind of bulging out

995
00:45:35,870 --> 00:45:33,720
like you see a chimpanzee do sometimes

996
00:45:39,230 --> 00:45:35,880
when they press their lips together you

997
00:45:41,690 --> 00:45:39,240
can everyone always again the most uh

998
00:45:44,630 --> 00:45:41,700
the novel comment someone recently said

999
00:45:45,950 --> 00:45:44,640
to me why is she wearing a mask like a

1000
00:45:47,089 --> 00:45:45,960
ninja

1001
00:45:49,990 --> 00:45:47,099
because

1002
00:45:53,990 --> 00:45:50,000
they they thought that this highlight

1003
00:45:56,870 --> 00:45:54,000
here uh on the side of the nose and down

1004
00:45:59,150 --> 00:45:56,880
around the underside of the eye was

1005
00:46:01,849 --> 00:45:59,160
um was the Act was the face that

1006
00:46:03,490 --> 00:46:01,859
everything below that was darker was you

1007
00:46:05,870 --> 00:46:03,500
know underneath the ninja

1008
00:46:08,510 --> 00:46:05,880
mask and

1009
00:46:10,849 --> 00:46:08,520
and then others say well these these

1010
00:46:13,609 --> 00:46:10,859
areas here are cut out you know

1011
00:46:17,870 --> 00:46:13,619
Hieronymus described that the head was

1012
00:46:20,750 --> 00:46:17,880
created on top of a football helmet and

1013
00:46:23,150 --> 00:46:20,760
that yeah the face was built up in front

1014
00:46:25,670 --> 00:46:23,160
so I mean you know he said that the eye

1015
00:46:28,030 --> 00:46:25,680
hole Yeah and aeronimus only had one eye

1016
00:46:31,250 --> 00:46:28,040
he had a glass eye

1017
00:46:33,470 --> 00:46:31,260
that he said he took out and stuck into

1018
00:46:35,870 --> 00:46:33,480
some clay on the outside so that it

1019
00:46:38,089 --> 00:46:35,880
would catch the light and give it a more

1020
00:46:41,329 --> 00:46:38,099
realistic look

1021
00:46:43,130 --> 00:46:41,339
and and that with his other eye he said

1022
00:46:45,650 --> 00:46:43,140
the opening to the actual in The Mask

1023
00:46:48,609 --> 00:46:45,660
was a good two inches away from his eye

1024
00:46:52,010 --> 00:46:48,619
now imagine you're out there

1025
00:46:54,710 --> 00:46:52,020
you can't see anything oversized feet

1026
00:46:56,510 --> 00:46:54,720
and you you close one eye and you put a

1027
00:46:59,210 --> 00:46:56,520
toilet paper roll up against your other

1028
00:47:03,470 --> 00:46:59,220
eye and that's the only way you can see

1029
00:47:06,290 --> 00:47:03,480
now you don't see any of that uh she she

1030
00:47:08,270 --> 00:47:06,300
walks us exactly beautifully and

1031
00:47:10,069 --> 00:47:08,280
smoothly she never looks down at the

1032
00:47:12,710 --> 00:47:10,079
ground to see where she's placing her

1033
00:47:17,230 --> 00:47:12,720
feet I mean she's she just has a sense

1034
00:47:20,150 --> 00:47:17,240
of of space a sense of of surrounding

1035
00:47:23,329 --> 00:47:20,160
and and as someone who likes to Barefoot

1036
00:47:25,130 --> 00:47:23,339
hike uh you better be looking at the

1037
00:47:27,650 --> 00:47:25,140
ground because you could step on some

1038
00:47:29,930 --> 00:47:27,660
things that you don't want to step on

1039
00:47:32,450 --> 00:47:29,940
and by the way I'll send you some photos

1040
00:47:35,210 --> 00:47:32,460
of tracks that I picked up that I'm not

1041
00:47:38,329 --> 00:47:35,220
I'm not sure about but I need to get Tim

1042
00:47:40,309 --> 00:47:38,339
Cena but anyway let's get Nathan in

1043
00:47:43,190 --> 00:47:40,319
there then we'll get Tim and then I've

1044
00:47:45,290 --> 00:47:43,200
got a a question to ask you that I think

1045
00:47:46,910 --> 00:47:45,300
might be interesting something Tim and I

1046
00:47:48,050 --> 00:47:46,920
have been discussing but go ahead money

1047
00:47:51,050 --> 00:47:48,060
Nathan please

1048
00:47:54,170 --> 00:47:51,060
sure so I'm sure Dr Meldrum you're

1049
00:47:56,930 --> 00:47:54,180
familiar with the recent uh kind of

1050
00:47:59,270 --> 00:47:56,940
discovery of homo naledi I think Leafly

1051
00:48:01,609 --> 00:47:59,280
Berger and you know we're kind of at a

1052
00:48:05,030 --> 00:48:01,619
time period now where we're re-examining

1053
00:48:07,790 --> 00:48:05,040
our human history and I'd like to hear

1054
00:48:09,710 --> 00:48:07,800
your thoughts on where you think this is

1055
00:48:13,010 --> 00:48:09,720
uh going if you could speculate a little

1056
00:48:16,309 --> 00:48:13,020
bit as we you know ReDiscover parts of

1057
00:48:18,290 --> 00:48:16,319
our past that that we maybe ignored or

1058
00:48:20,809 --> 00:48:18,300
uh didn't want to look too closely at

1059
00:48:23,990 --> 00:48:20,819
for fear of what it might tell us

1060
00:48:27,109 --> 00:48:24,000
well I think it's just it's it's been

1061
00:48:29,210 --> 00:48:27,119
uh we we've experienced a paradigm shift

1062
00:48:31,069 --> 00:48:29,220
in anthropology

1063
00:48:33,410 --> 00:48:31,079
and uh

1064
00:48:36,589 --> 00:48:33,420
when when I was a student we were coming

1065
00:48:39,290 --> 00:48:36,599
off just off of it off of a prior

1066
00:48:42,050 --> 00:48:39,300
Paradigm which was labeled

1067
00:48:44,750 --> 00:48:42,060
um the single species hypothesis you

1068
00:48:47,510 --> 00:48:44,760
know I often wondered why why was there

1069
00:48:49,309 --> 00:48:47,520
this almost irrational well it was

1070
00:48:51,530 --> 00:48:49,319
irrational a lot of the comments that

1071
00:48:54,050 --> 00:48:51,540
were made were irrational by the critics

1072
00:48:56,329 --> 00:48:54,060
those who criticized the Patterson

1073
00:48:58,550 --> 00:48:56,339
gimlin film it just said things that in

1074
00:49:01,130 --> 00:48:58,560
even at the time should have been

1075
00:49:02,990 --> 00:49:01,140
recognized as irrational but now in

1076
00:49:05,630 --> 00:49:03,000
hindsight or just embarrassing for my

1077
00:49:08,750 --> 00:49:05,640
discipline that the experts that were

1078
00:49:11,030 --> 00:49:08,760
tapped to evaluate this thing made these

1079
00:49:12,770 --> 00:49:11,040
ridiculous pronouncements like well I

1080
00:49:15,950 --> 00:49:12,780
mean just for example

1081
00:49:18,109 --> 00:49:15,960
um the the one I can't remember who who

1082
00:49:21,309 --> 00:49:18,119
to give this credit to now but he said

1083
00:49:25,150 --> 00:49:21,319
isn't this silly um

1084
00:49:28,250 --> 00:49:25,160
they've gone to the effort of uh

1085
00:49:31,069 --> 00:49:28,260
endowing our this costume with female

1086
00:49:34,130 --> 00:49:31,079
breasts but the creature Walks Like a

1087
00:49:36,349 --> 00:49:34,140
Man it's obviously a man in a fursuit

1088
00:49:39,650 --> 00:49:36,359
well now wait a minute you know

1089
00:49:42,710 --> 00:49:39,660
obviously humans walk different male

1090
00:49:45,589 --> 00:49:42,720
versus female on average why is that

1091
00:49:49,130 --> 00:49:45,599
because females typically have a larger

1092
00:49:52,609 --> 00:49:49,140
birth canal a wider pelvis

1093
00:49:54,770 --> 00:49:52,619
that separates the hip and increases the

1094
00:49:57,710 --> 00:49:54,780
valgus angle of the thighs bringing the

1095
00:49:59,990 --> 00:49:57,720
knees in towards the midline and so when

1096
00:50:04,430 --> 00:50:00,000
they walk there's a greater tendency for

1097
00:50:08,390 --> 00:50:04,440
listing of the pelvis okay

1098
00:50:11,170 --> 00:50:08,400
this creature if it exists has a brain

1099
00:50:14,089 --> 00:50:11,180
that is proportionate to its body size

1100
00:50:15,770 --> 00:50:14,099
similar to that of a of an ape of a

1101
00:50:19,490 --> 00:50:15,780
gorilla or chimpanzee

1102
00:50:22,990 --> 00:50:19,500
and as such does not have the obstetric

1103
00:50:26,630 --> 00:50:23,000
constraints of childbirth of

1104
00:50:29,990 --> 00:50:26,640
giving birth to a large brained infant

1105
00:50:32,569 --> 00:50:30,000
and so the hips would not be wider in a

1106
00:50:36,290 --> 00:50:32,579
female Sasquatch versus a male Sasquatch

1107
00:50:39,290 --> 00:50:36,300
Ergo a female Sasquatch Walks Like a

1108
00:50:42,050 --> 00:50:39,300
male Sasquatch essentially I mean

1109
00:50:44,569 --> 00:50:42,060
obviously there's other uh Mass

1110
00:50:45,890 --> 00:50:44,579
distribution issues that might come into

1111
00:50:49,130 --> 00:50:45,900
play

1112
00:50:51,470 --> 00:50:49,140
um uh but nevertheless when it comes to

1113
00:50:52,910 --> 00:50:51,480
the hips they're going to be very very

1114
00:50:55,730 --> 00:50:52,920
similar I mean that that kind of thing

1115
00:50:58,849 --> 00:50:55,740
so anyway I'm sorry I got off on that

1116
00:51:01,430 --> 00:50:58,859
that path you were asking about

1117
00:51:04,549 --> 00:51:01,440
remind me again oh the no the Paradigm

1118
00:51:06,470 --> 00:51:04,559
Shift yes so my my react my question was

1119
00:51:10,309 --> 00:51:06,480
why were there such a visceral reaction

1120
00:51:12,770 --> 00:51:10,319
a rejection well back in the 60s it was

1121
00:51:15,589 --> 00:51:12,780
at the Heyday in the 60s

1122
00:51:19,130 --> 00:51:15,599
um physical anthropology was still kind

1123
00:51:22,309 --> 00:51:19,140
of coming into its own as a as a

1124
00:51:24,230 --> 00:51:22,319
reputable hard science discipline

1125
00:51:29,329 --> 00:51:24,240
of anthropology

1126
00:51:32,410 --> 00:51:29,339
uh and uh defining itself and it uh as

1127
00:51:35,270 --> 00:51:32,420
do as is the case with many fledgling

1128
00:51:37,609 --> 00:51:35,280
disciplines they look to other

1129
00:51:40,670 --> 00:51:37,619
disciplines for

1130
00:51:44,630 --> 00:51:40,680
um axioms that can be incorporated and

1131
00:51:46,430 --> 00:51:44,640
one of those was the uh competitive

1132
00:51:49,430 --> 00:51:46,440
exclusion principle which started off

1133
00:51:51,410 --> 00:51:49,440
back in the 30s with microbiologists who

1134
00:51:54,049 --> 00:51:51,420
recognized the two species couldn't grow

1135
00:51:55,730 --> 00:51:54,059
in the same uh medium one would do it

1136
00:51:58,970 --> 00:51:55,740
better than the other and drive one to

1137
00:52:03,710 --> 00:51:58,980
Extinction so one species one species

1138
00:52:07,390 --> 00:52:03,720
one Niche Niche well ecology with its

1139
00:52:09,890 --> 00:52:07,400
Central Niche hypothesis Niche concept

1140
00:52:12,410 --> 00:52:09,900
glommed onto that competitive exclusion

1141
00:52:16,190 --> 00:52:12,420
principle and that defined the

1142
00:52:19,490 --> 00:52:16,200
ecological niche one species one Niche

1143
00:52:22,549 --> 00:52:19,500
well anthropologists said well the

1144
00:52:25,430 --> 00:52:22,559
hominin niche defined by bipedalism

1145
00:52:28,970 --> 00:52:25,440
braininess and above all culture

1146
00:52:31,010 --> 00:52:28,980
that's a pretty exclusive Club so there

1147
00:52:33,950 --> 00:52:31,020
can be only one species in it at any

1148
00:52:38,750 --> 00:52:33,960
given time so human evolution was

1149
00:52:41,329 --> 00:52:38,760
perceived as this and narrated The

1150
00:52:45,049 --> 00:52:41,339
Narrative that took shape as a single

1151
00:52:47,809 --> 00:52:45,059
file March one species giving rise to

1152
00:52:50,170 --> 00:52:47,819
its successor you know either in fits

1153
00:52:53,690 --> 00:52:50,180
and starts or in gradual

1154
00:52:57,710 --> 00:52:53,700
changing uh evolution

1155
00:53:00,829 --> 00:52:57,720
but there could be only one so in 1967

1156
00:53:04,130 --> 00:53:00,839
or go back in 1962

1157
00:53:07,190 --> 00:53:04,140
Ivan Sanderson publishes huge Tome his

1158
00:53:09,290 --> 00:53:07,200
encyclopedic Tome abominable snowman led

1159
00:53:12,710 --> 00:53:09,300
to come to life

1160
00:53:15,770 --> 00:53:12,720
um subtitle was sub-human species on

1161
00:53:17,950 --> 00:53:15,780
five continents you know he he brought

1162
00:53:21,490 --> 00:53:17,960
in the notion of

1163
00:53:24,290 --> 00:53:21,500
neo-giants sasquatch-like creatures

1164
00:53:26,569 --> 00:53:24,300
distinguishing them from the yeti and

1165
00:53:29,030 --> 00:53:26,579
from the Russian Almas and from the

1166
00:53:30,589 --> 00:53:29,040
little people the urang pandex of

1167
00:53:32,210 --> 00:53:30,599
Southeast Asia

1168
00:53:35,329 --> 00:53:32,220
okay

1169
00:53:37,190 --> 00:53:35,339
presents this to the scientific

1170
00:53:40,370 --> 00:53:37,200
Community I mean this was intended to be

1171
00:53:43,069 --> 00:53:40,380
a scientific treatment and they go it's

1172
00:53:45,470 --> 00:53:43,079
just it's just fairy tales you know

1173
00:53:48,109 --> 00:53:45,480
there there is no there is only one

1174
00:53:50,630 --> 00:53:48,119
species in that Niche and we're it so

1175
00:53:53,450 --> 00:53:50,640
that these things can't exist

1176
00:53:56,329 --> 00:53:53,460
so in Roger Patterson 1967 it's still

1177
00:53:58,309 --> 00:53:56,339
that's the Paradigm so when you suggest

1178
00:54:00,530 --> 00:53:58,319
you know they see this thing walk across

1179
00:54:03,410 --> 00:54:00,540
the uh the screen

1180
00:54:06,890 --> 00:54:03,420
and it stands up right it's bipedal like

1181
00:54:09,470 --> 00:54:06,900
us like a like a homonym well that can't

1182
00:54:12,230 --> 00:54:09,480
be it can't exist therefore it there

1183
00:54:14,750 --> 00:54:12,240
must it must be hoaxed so let's see what

1184
00:54:15,849 --> 00:54:14,760
what rationale can we give to defend

1185
00:54:18,410 --> 00:54:15,859
that

1186
00:54:22,309 --> 00:54:18,420
edict and they made up these ridiculous

1187
00:54:25,130 --> 00:54:22,319
things John Green um sorry John Napier

1188
00:54:27,950 --> 00:54:25,140
was a primatologist who was on the panel

1189
00:54:30,230 --> 00:54:27,960
at the Smithsonian viewing the Patterson

1190
00:54:31,130 --> 00:54:30,240
Patterson Gilman film

1191
00:54:34,370 --> 00:54:31,140
um

1192
00:54:37,250 --> 00:54:34,380
uh Napier's specialty was primate

1193
00:54:39,829 --> 00:54:37,260
Locomotion he he was a actually a

1194
00:54:42,349 --> 00:54:39,839
physician before becoming an academician

1195
00:54:45,230 --> 00:54:42,359
you know at his MD as well as his PhD

1196
00:54:48,470 --> 00:54:45,240
and was a hand and foot specialist

1197
00:54:52,130 --> 00:54:48,480
and uh you know so he was very very

1198
00:54:54,950 --> 00:54:52,140
qualified to evaluate and he came thumbs

1199
00:54:57,470 --> 00:54:54,960
down but in his book which he he wrote

1200
00:54:59,930 --> 00:54:57,480
eventually shortly thereafter over the

1201
00:55:01,430 --> 00:54:59,940
next several years he said he was at

1202
00:55:04,430 --> 00:55:01,440
least forthright enough to say you know

1203
00:55:07,370 --> 00:55:04,440
I really can't justify that conclusion

1204
00:55:09,410 --> 00:55:07,380
except when I look at what I at what's

1205
00:55:11,150 --> 00:55:09,420
on the screen there from the waist up it

1206
00:55:12,770 --> 00:55:11,160
looks like a hey

1207
00:55:13,809 --> 00:55:12,780
from the waist down it looks like a

1208
00:55:18,109 --> 00:55:13,819
human

1209
00:55:22,010 --> 00:55:18,119
I can't imagine that hybrid of structure

1210
00:55:24,670 --> 00:55:22,020
existing in nature it must be a hoax of

1211
00:55:28,430 --> 00:55:24,680
fabrication well his book came out in

1212
00:55:30,770 --> 00:55:28,440
1972 later in that decade kind of the

1213
00:55:34,549 --> 00:55:30,780
often labeled as the Golden Era of

1214
00:55:37,450 --> 00:55:34,559
paleoanthropology uh don Johansson and

1215
00:55:40,130 --> 00:55:37,460
Lucy came on the stage

1216
00:55:43,490 --> 00:55:40,140
Australopithecus afarensis for the first

1217
00:55:46,130 --> 00:55:43,500
time they had cranial remains associated

1218
00:55:50,390 --> 00:55:46,140
with post-cranial skeletal remains

1219
00:55:52,549 --> 00:55:50,400
including a pelvis and knees and ankles

1220
00:55:54,290 --> 00:55:52,559
and how did they describe this

1221
00:55:56,809 --> 00:55:54,300
interesting new species to the popular

1222
00:55:58,549 --> 00:55:56,819
press from the waist up she looks just

1223
00:56:00,710 --> 00:55:58,559
like a chimpanzee from the waist down

1224
00:56:01,990 --> 00:56:00,720
she looks like a human well now wait a

1225
00:56:04,910 --> 00:56:02,000
minute

1226
00:56:07,549 --> 00:56:04,920
that was the linchpin in Napier's

1227
00:56:09,470 --> 00:56:07,559
argument for rejecting the film what if

1228
00:56:11,450 --> 00:56:09,480
he had waited another five years before

1229
00:56:13,790 --> 00:56:11,460
he finished his book and published it

1230
00:56:17,510 --> 00:56:13,800
well I wonder what his you know he died

1231
00:56:20,210 --> 00:56:17,520
not too long after retirement but I

1232
00:56:22,010 --> 00:56:20,220
um I wonder what what difference so then

1233
00:56:25,370 --> 00:56:22,020
there was this shift so all of a sudden

1234
00:56:28,030 --> 00:56:25,380
now I mean not first of all Not only was

1235
00:56:31,309 --> 00:56:28,040
was there more awareness about unusual

1236
00:56:33,950 --> 00:56:31,319
unexpected combinations of traits which

1237
00:56:37,010 --> 00:56:33,960
had been presaged by the Patterson

1238
00:56:40,130 --> 00:56:37,020
gimlet film sometimes by decades but we

1239
00:56:43,130 --> 00:56:40,140
had this burgeoning discovery this

1240
00:56:46,069 --> 00:56:43,140
plethora of hominins that you couldn't

1241
00:56:48,829 --> 00:56:46,079
squeeze onto a single line

1242
00:56:50,870 --> 00:56:48,839
and so suddenly now we've got a bushy

1243
00:56:52,910 --> 00:56:50,880
family tree with lots of species

1244
00:56:55,510 --> 00:56:52,920
coexisting across

1245
00:56:59,329 --> 00:56:55,520
um the the landscape at different times

1246
00:57:03,190 --> 00:56:59,339
and we have evidence of many of these

1247
00:57:07,549 --> 00:57:03,200
lineages persisting like homo naladi

1248
00:57:09,710 --> 00:57:07,559
until remarkably recent times I mean we

1249
00:57:12,230 --> 00:57:09,720
have Neanderthal sites that possibly

1250
00:57:15,549 --> 00:57:12,240
could be as young as 10 000 years if not

1251
00:57:20,450 --> 00:57:15,559
if not into the present we've got

1252
00:57:23,150 --> 00:57:20,460
homohyoburgensis in in East Asia above

1253
00:57:24,829 --> 00:57:23,160
Beijing that's been dated to about 20

1254
00:57:26,930 --> 00:57:24,839
000 years we have the possibility of

1255
00:57:29,089 --> 00:57:26,940
homo erectus on some of these dates are

1256
00:57:32,630 --> 00:57:29,099
this this one is is a little bit

1257
00:57:34,670 --> 00:57:32,640
contested but possibly as reason as 25

1258
00:57:37,250 --> 00:57:34,680
000 some have pushed it back to as much

1259
00:57:40,069 --> 00:57:37,260
as seventy thousand but so what seventy

1260
00:57:43,089 --> 00:57:40,079
thousand years I mean they were living

1261
00:57:46,250 --> 00:57:43,099
alongside homo sapiens

1262
00:57:48,950 --> 00:57:46,260
uh and so you know you jump in a time

1263
00:57:50,569 --> 00:57:48,960
machine and go back 30 000 years get out

1264
00:57:53,210 --> 00:57:50,579
in East Asia and walk around you might

1265
00:57:56,089 --> 00:57:53,220
bump into any of one of any one of as

1266
00:57:58,549 --> 00:57:56,099
many as six or seven or eight species of

1267
00:58:01,190 --> 00:57:58,559
bipedal hominin

1268
00:58:04,370 --> 00:58:01,200
so it's just that that's been the

1269
00:58:06,049 --> 00:58:04,380
biggest change I think and so it's not

1270
00:58:08,270 --> 00:58:06,059
you know it's um

1271
00:58:09,410 --> 00:58:08,280
there there's always

1272
00:58:12,109 --> 00:58:09,420
um

1273
00:58:14,510 --> 00:58:12,119
individuals who are

1274
00:58:15,950 --> 00:58:14,520
very close-minded very parochial in

1275
00:58:21,349 --> 00:58:15,960
their thinking

1276
00:58:22,250 --> 00:58:21,359
uh but this is even more profound more

1277
00:58:23,089 --> 00:58:22,260
more

1278
00:58:25,190 --> 00:58:23,099
um

1279
00:58:29,089 --> 00:58:25,200
uh what's the word I'm after it's it's

1280
00:58:30,530 --> 00:58:29,099
more um I mean it's institutional it's

1281
00:58:34,309 --> 00:58:30,540
not the individual it's it's

1282
00:58:37,190 --> 00:58:34,319
institutional and a whole generation has

1283
00:58:39,589 --> 00:58:37,200
had to kind of pass you know I I get

1284
00:58:41,690 --> 00:58:39,599
approached by students now uh

1285
00:58:44,150 --> 00:58:41,700
anthropology students and recent

1286
00:58:45,530 --> 00:58:44,160
graduates who are really excited about

1287
00:58:48,849 --> 00:58:45,540
this topic

1288
00:58:51,890 --> 00:58:48,859
and they're not completely

1289
00:58:54,770 --> 00:58:51,900
indoctrinated in this notion of a single

1290
00:58:57,289 --> 00:58:54,780
species hypothesis they are you know now

1291
00:58:59,870 --> 00:58:57,299
more open to the possibility that that

1292
00:59:03,289 --> 00:58:59,880
some of these lineages have persisted

1293
00:59:06,049 --> 00:59:03,299
into recent times and why why why would

1294
00:59:08,750 --> 00:59:06,059
we reject that hypothesis you know this

1295
00:59:10,490 --> 00:59:08,760
arrogant notion that if it was out it's

1296
00:59:12,370 --> 00:59:10,500
like one of my previous Department

1297
00:59:15,470 --> 00:59:12,380
chairs

1298
00:59:17,569 --> 00:59:15,480
you know his his retort to me was I was

1299
00:59:19,609 --> 00:59:17,579
born and raised in Idaho I've hunted and

1300
00:59:22,069 --> 00:59:19,619
fished all across the state if it was

1301
00:59:24,410 --> 00:59:22,079
out there I'd have seen it by now sure

1302
00:59:26,170 --> 00:59:24,420
wow that's that's a real high opinion

1303
00:59:29,650 --> 00:59:26,180
yeah wow

1304
00:59:32,089 --> 00:59:29,660
of observation

1305
00:59:33,289 --> 00:59:32,099
you know a little bit more comfortable I

1306
00:59:35,990 --> 00:59:33,299
think that's the issue right it's

1307
00:59:37,670 --> 00:59:36,000
uncomfortable for people to imagine just

1308
00:59:40,430 --> 00:59:37,680
what you stated earlier that they're at

1309
00:59:43,190 --> 00:59:40,440
one point in time we occupied this

1310
00:59:45,829 --> 00:59:43,200
planet with sister species brother

1311
00:59:48,410 --> 00:59:45,839
sister species yeah it's something that

1312
00:59:50,990 --> 00:59:48,420
we can't really wrap our minds around

1313
00:59:53,450 --> 00:59:51,000
because sure we trade the other animals

1314
00:59:56,030 --> 00:59:53,460
around us as you know sort of as lesser

1315
00:59:57,950 --> 00:59:56,040
than right so it really kind of

1316
00:59:59,809 --> 00:59:57,960
confronts some of our biases in many

1317
01:00:02,690 --> 00:59:59,819
ways right well and when people raise

1318
01:00:05,210 --> 01:00:02,700
that uh that contention you know one of

1319
01:00:06,950 --> 01:00:05,220
my comments I said well you know if

1320
01:00:10,370 --> 01:00:06,960
they're especially if they're speaking

1321
01:00:11,990 --> 01:00:10,380
from the position of of a faith uh

1322
01:00:15,470 --> 01:00:12,000
conviction

1323
01:00:17,210 --> 01:00:15,480
um and they they may think that uh

1324
01:00:18,530 --> 01:00:17,220
acknowledging and I've had people say

1325
01:00:22,010 --> 01:00:18,540
this acknowledging the existence of

1326
01:00:24,710 --> 01:00:22,020
Bigfoot would question our own

1327
01:00:27,109 --> 01:00:24,720
um special place in creation

1328
01:00:29,390 --> 01:00:27,119
and I and my response is well you know

1329
01:00:31,970 --> 01:00:29,400
does the existence of a gorilla threaten

1330
01:00:34,250 --> 01:00:31,980
your faith I didn't believe in that

1331
01:00:36,230 --> 01:00:34,260
either this is just a yeah this is just

1332
01:00:39,049 --> 01:00:36,240
a gorilla that stands on its hind legs

1333
01:00:41,630 --> 01:00:39,059
but it's it's uh in this case now you

1334
01:00:44,329 --> 01:00:41,640
know if they if they discover an Almas

1335
01:00:46,670 --> 01:00:44,339
and it's an it's a relic Neanderthal now

1336
01:00:48,890 --> 01:00:46,680
that's going to be a different maybe a

1337
01:00:52,849 --> 01:00:48,900
sticky or Wicket because of the

1338
01:00:55,010 --> 01:00:52,859
remarkable affinity and and the flow you

1339
01:00:57,950 --> 01:00:55,020
know the introgression of Neanderthal

1340
01:01:01,130 --> 01:00:57,960
genes in the in the human

1341
01:01:02,690 --> 01:01:01,140
genome so hey Jeff one one thing I was

1342
01:01:04,730 --> 01:01:02,700
going to say about the Skeptics is what

1343
01:01:06,710 --> 01:01:04,740
happens when you bring them like one of

1344
01:01:08,510 --> 01:01:06,720
these prints where it's really obvious

1345
01:01:10,670 --> 01:01:08,520
about the mid-tarsal break and then you

1346
01:01:12,470 --> 01:01:10,680
go does the human's foot Bend there do

1347
01:01:15,549 --> 01:01:12,480
you think our foot bends there I mean

1348
01:01:19,430 --> 01:01:15,559
like you know yeah well I mean the

1349
01:01:22,609 --> 01:01:19,440
easiest argument is is to kind of uh I

1350
01:01:25,490 --> 01:01:22,619
guess just profess uh ignorance and say

1351
01:01:27,530 --> 01:01:25,500
that my interpretation is wrong that

1352
01:01:30,950 --> 01:01:27,540
it's just it's still well and there have

1353
01:01:33,049 --> 01:01:30,960
been those um uh what's his name Crowley

1354
01:01:34,309 --> 01:01:33,059
Matthew Crowley has done some of the

1355
01:01:36,589 --> 01:01:34,319
most

1356
01:01:38,870 --> 01:01:36,599
um publicized work where he he actually

1357
01:01:41,870 --> 01:01:38,880
modeled some

1358
01:01:43,730 --> 01:01:41,880
um fake feet out of the latex rubber and

1359
01:01:48,289 --> 01:01:43,740
had them mounted to shoes that he could

1360
01:01:52,010 --> 01:01:48,299
wear and and then walk on sand and he uh

1361
01:01:54,770 --> 01:01:52,020
he published photos that he said showed

1362
01:01:57,470 --> 01:01:54,780
how he produced a mid-tarsal pressure

1363
01:02:01,190 --> 01:01:57,480
Ridge with these fake feet but the the

1364
01:02:03,829 --> 01:02:01,200
ridge it's not consistent from one step

1365
01:02:07,370 --> 01:02:03,839
to the other it's you know because it's

1366
01:02:09,650 --> 01:02:07,380
not being dictated by an articulation in

1367
01:02:13,609 --> 01:02:09,660
the skeleton of the foot it's by the

1368
01:02:15,170 --> 01:02:13,619
deforma the deformation of this uh this

1369
01:02:19,430 --> 01:02:15,180
squishy

1370
01:02:21,549 --> 01:02:19,440
um uh foot semi-rigid rubber foot I mean

1371
01:02:23,870 --> 01:02:21,559
it's just there's a total

1372
01:02:26,270 --> 01:02:23,880
misunderstanding on his part and I

1373
01:02:28,010 --> 01:02:26,280
wouldn't expect him to understand the uh

1374
01:02:31,150 --> 01:02:28,020
the skeletal Anatomy but I would expect

1375
01:02:34,910 --> 01:02:31,160
him to withhold his opinion until he

1376
01:02:38,150 --> 01:02:34,920
educated himself on the uh biomechanics

1377
01:02:41,990 --> 01:02:38,160
underlying his his supposition but it's

1378
01:02:43,609 --> 01:02:42,000
you know I'm very very confident in my

1379
01:02:45,730 --> 01:02:43,619
interpretation

1380
01:02:48,430 --> 01:02:45,740
uh uh

1381
01:02:51,530 --> 01:02:48,440
both because of the repeated

1382
01:02:54,789 --> 01:02:51,540
corroboration with other examples

1383
01:02:59,569 --> 01:02:54,799
but also because I can actually watch

1384
01:03:02,329 --> 01:02:59,579
the dynamic unfold on the film the video

1385
01:03:04,970 --> 01:03:02,339
yeah see the movement of the foot I can

1386
01:03:07,190 --> 01:03:04,980
see that flexion and so forth that it

1387
01:03:09,410 --> 01:03:07,200
accounts for I said what really

1388
01:03:11,569 --> 01:03:09,420
uh sealed the deal for me though was

1389
01:03:12,829 --> 01:03:11,579
when I went to China

1390
01:03:16,069 --> 01:03:12,839
and

1391
01:03:19,670 --> 01:03:16,079
there in China had the opportunity to to

1392
01:03:23,150 --> 01:03:19,680
meet a witness who had uh the

1393
01:03:25,250 --> 01:03:23,160
wherewithal to make a pair of casts of

1394
01:03:27,770 --> 01:03:25,260
the footprints left by the creature that

1395
01:03:30,530 --> 01:03:27,780
he had witnessed that he encountered in

1396
01:03:32,630 --> 01:03:30,540
the sheninjian nature reserve and you

1397
01:03:34,370 --> 01:03:32,640
know it was it was it was quite dramatic

1398
01:03:37,490 --> 01:03:34,380
because they wouldn't let me see them

1399
01:03:39,589 --> 01:03:37,500
until they were ready to roll for the

1400
01:03:42,770 --> 01:03:39,599
interview they wanted to capture that

1401
01:03:45,890 --> 01:03:42,780
first impression and I had a little a

1402
01:03:48,530 --> 01:03:45,900
little bit of a of a spoiler because I

1403
01:03:50,390 --> 01:03:48,540
had given I gave Mr Yuan as we're on the

1404
01:03:52,430 --> 01:03:50,400
bus going out to the site the location

1405
01:03:55,010 --> 01:03:52,440
they had chosen to do to set up for the

1406
01:03:58,549 --> 01:03:55,020
interview I gave Mr Yuan the the witness

1407
01:04:00,230 --> 01:03:58,559
a reprint of the paper the igno taxonomy

1408
01:04:02,569 --> 01:04:00,240
paper which was very profusely

1409
01:04:06,770 --> 01:04:02,579
Illustrated and showed this this very

1410
01:04:09,950 --> 01:04:06,780
dramatic figure with 3D scans of that uh

1411
01:04:12,770 --> 01:04:09,960
very pronounced pressure Ridge in the

1412
01:04:15,650 --> 01:04:12,780
cast made by Bob titmus showing it from

1413
01:04:17,150 --> 01:04:15,660
three points of view he couldn't read

1414
01:04:19,190 --> 01:04:17,160
the English he couldn't speak English

1415
01:04:21,890 --> 01:04:19,200
but boy he saw that he opens it up and

1416
01:04:24,890 --> 01:04:21,900
he sees that illustration and oh he just

1417
01:04:27,109 --> 01:04:24,900
sat up in his chair grabbed my shirt my

1418
01:04:29,109 --> 01:04:27,119
or my jacket sleeve and he's pulling on

1419
01:04:31,549 --> 01:04:29,119
and he's thumping on the illustration

1420
01:04:33,829 --> 01:04:31,559
and I said okay I get it I get okay okay

1421
01:04:35,150 --> 01:04:33,839
so we get there and he opens up his

1422
01:04:36,710 --> 01:04:35,160
little suitcase and now comes the

1423
01:04:40,130 --> 01:04:36,720
toweling and out comes this pair of

1424
01:04:42,410 --> 01:04:40,140
footprints and they were dead ringers I

1425
01:04:44,329 --> 01:04:42,420
mean this thing was had a maybe a

1426
01:04:46,490 --> 01:04:44,339
another half inch or three quarters inch

1427
01:04:49,370 --> 01:04:46,500
bread so maybe it was a young male

1428
01:04:52,309 --> 01:04:49,380
instead of a female like Patty but um

1429
01:04:55,190 --> 01:04:52,319
but I mean the shape and proportions the

1430
01:04:58,970 --> 01:04:55,200
orientation and position of the pressure

1431
01:05:01,549 --> 01:04:58,980
Ridge uh was just identical and this the

1432
01:05:04,370 --> 01:05:01,559
circumstances were such it it had

1433
01:05:07,789 --> 01:05:04,380
squatted down presumably at a spring on

1434
01:05:10,010 --> 01:05:07,799
a muddy bank and so in squatting the

1435
01:05:11,569 --> 01:05:10,020
foot had the heel had come up and the

1436
01:05:12,770 --> 01:05:11,579
weight was differentially over the

1437
01:05:15,770 --> 01:05:12,780
fourth part of the foot and it created

1438
01:05:17,349 --> 01:05:15,780
it push the push back into the heel

1439
01:05:19,910 --> 01:05:17,359
imprint and

1440
01:05:21,950 --> 01:05:19,920
how could this guy have done this I mean

1441
01:05:23,990 --> 01:05:21,960
well I mean what are the odds where did

1442
01:05:25,609 --> 01:05:24,000
he couldn't speak English he didn't even

1443
01:05:27,470 --> 01:05:25,619
know about Sasquatch Through The

1444
01:05:29,329 --> 01:05:27,480
Interpreter he asked me at one point so

1445
01:05:31,789 --> 01:05:29,339
is there anything like is there anything

1446
01:05:34,789 --> 01:05:31,799
like the wild man the year and is there

1447
01:05:38,630 --> 01:05:34,799
anything like this in America I go uh

1448
01:05:41,870 --> 01:05:38,640
yeah there we think there is that's why

1449
01:05:44,630 --> 01:05:41,880
we're why we're here you know 48 or 50

1450
01:05:46,970 --> 01:05:44,640
states uh uh We've we've had sightings

1451
01:05:48,950 --> 01:05:46,980
just about 47 or so

1452
01:05:51,530 --> 01:05:48,960
um okay so here's what we got so we got

1453
01:05:54,170 --> 01:05:51,540
about 23 minutes left we're gonna go to

1454
01:05:56,510 --> 01:05:54,180
Tim first of all welcome Tim uh the the

1455
01:05:59,150 --> 01:05:56,520
co-host of Bigfoot influencers party

1456
01:06:01,849 --> 01:05:59,160
people put no hand together

1457
01:06:03,890 --> 01:06:01,859
thank you thank you and Dr Jeff my

1458
01:06:06,589 --> 01:06:03,900
friend how are you good thank you good

1459
01:06:08,210 --> 01:06:06,599
to see you good to see you so uh I've

1460
01:06:10,270 --> 01:06:08,220
got a question that I've never asked you

1461
01:06:13,270 --> 01:06:10,280
before which is rare because I've

1462
01:06:17,210 --> 01:06:13,280
badgered you with questions

1463
01:06:20,210 --> 01:06:17,220
based on the Patterson game one film

1464
01:06:23,150 --> 01:06:20,220
will has anyone been accurately been

1465
01:06:26,390 --> 01:06:23,160
able to determine the shoulder width

1466
01:06:28,789 --> 01:06:26,400
and if it's out of human range wouldn't

1467
01:06:31,490 --> 01:06:28,799
that be pretty much rule out of hoax

1468
01:06:36,650 --> 01:06:31,500
yeah yeah this is interesting

1469
01:06:39,230 --> 01:06:36,660
um the the most detailed assessment of

1470
01:06:42,470 --> 01:06:39,240
the proportions was carried out by John

1471
01:06:45,770 --> 01:06:42,480
Green so very early on he did a whole

1472
01:06:47,589 --> 01:06:45,780
series of tracings of enlargements of

1473
01:06:50,809 --> 01:06:47,599
the frame so this was from the original

1474
01:06:54,589 --> 01:06:50,819
you know and from those tracings using

1475
01:06:56,569 --> 01:06:54,599
the foot as the scale of 14 and a half

1476
01:06:57,710 --> 01:06:56,579
inches now there's there's a little room

1477
01:07:01,609 --> 01:06:57,720
for

1478
01:07:04,970 --> 01:07:01,619
as with many people uh one foot is

1479
01:07:08,390 --> 01:07:04,980
slightly longer than the other uh so you

1480
01:07:10,190 --> 01:07:08,400
always hear 14 and a half inches but and

1481
01:07:13,069 --> 01:07:10,200
that is her and I have to always picture

1482
01:07:16,430 --> 01:07:13,079
this that is her right foot the left

1483
01:07:19,010 --> 01:07:16,440
foot I would be more comfortable uh

1484
01:07:20,390 --> 01:07:19,020
labeling it as 15 inches you know you

1485
01:07:22,910 --> 01:07:20,400
always have to be careful because I mean

1486
01:07:24,950 --> 01:07:22,920
we're dealing with Footprints right and

1487
01:07:27,589 --> 01:07:24,960
there and the depth of the imprint and

1488
01:07:29,809 --> 01:07:27,599
other distortions the way the toes are

1489
01:07:31,609 --> 01:07:29,819
are lifted out and so forth can add a

1490
01:07:34,130 --> 01:07:31,619
quarter inch a half inch easier but

1491
01:07:36,950 --> 01:07:34,140
anyway using that as the scale we then

1492
01:07:40,549 --> 01:07:36,960
determined her proportions and yes her

1493
01:07:44,329 --> 01:07:40,559
shoulder breath I mean it was uh was

1494
01:07:47,029 --> 01:07:44,339
close to 36 inches if I remember I'd

1495
01:07:48,410 --> 01:07:47,039
have to look down again 36 or 42 inches

1496
01:07:50,329 --> 01:07:48,420
across

1497
01:07:52,849 --> 01:07:50,339
now I'm

1498
01:07:54,770 --> 01:07:52,859
I am seeing I'm all these numbers have

1499
01:07:56,809 --> 01:07:54,780
just gone out of my head because I'm I'm

1500
01:07:59,089 --> 01:07:56,819
just about six foot I have fairly broad

1501
01:08:00,890 --> 01:07:59,099
shoulders but my shoulders last time I

1502
01:08:03,770 --> 01:08:00,900
measured them I think where it was only

1503
01:08:05,750 --> 01:08:03,780
like 27 inches across so you could

1504
01:08:08,569 --> 01:08:05,760
imagine something that's another

1505
01:08:11,289 --> 01:08:08,579
six inches maybe a foot taller than me

1506
01:08:16,910 --> 01:08:11,299
but then with shoulders that are a full

1507
01:08:20,269 --> 01:08:16,920
uh 10 to 16 inches uh wider than my

1508
01:08:24,169 --> 01:08:20,279
shoulder so it's it was this was a an

1509
01:08:28,070 --> 01:08:24,179
interesting thing came up and and

1510
01:08:29,749 --> 01:08:28,080
um have a real uh tension between a

1511
01:08:32,450 --> 01:08:29,759
former colleague and I don't know who

1512
01:08:38,930 --> 01:08:32,460
you were talking and before the show

1513
01:08:42,289 --> 01:08:38,940
about my uh roommate uh Dr Simeon Hein

1514
01:08:44,329 --> 01:08:42,299
oh I'll have to read his uh what the

1515
01:08:46,010 --> 01:08:44,339
text said and then I'll read back to you

1516
01:08:48,110 --> 01:08:46,020
yeah well uh for a long time people

1517
01:08:51,349 --> 01:08:48,120
thought that that David daeglin and I

1518
01:08:53,749 --> 01:08:51,359
were roommates at Stony Brook cousin

1519
01:08:57,530 --> 01:08:53,759
Daniel at Yale it was his cousin Daniel

1520
01:09:00,530 --> 01:08:57,540
oh oh Daniel Daniel hey Yale you went to

1521
01:09:01,789 --> 01:09:00,540
Yale no I didn't go to Yale oh he must

1522
01:09:04,070 --> 01:09:01,799
have you confused with somebody else

1523
01:09:05,450 --> 01:09:04,080
then yeah it might be it might be a

1524
01:09:08,990 --> 01:09:05,460
different Jeff [\h__\h] instead of Jeff

1525
01:09:12,050 --> 01:09:09,000
Meldrum yeah phds go ahead okay so so

1526
01:09:14,150 --> 01:09:12,060
David daglin made a big deal Grover

1527
01:09:15,890 --> 01:09:14,160
Krantz had had asserted that there

1528
01:09:18,349 --> 01:09:15,900
wasn't a human alive

1529
01:09:20,090 --> 01:09:18,359
that could fill the proportions of that

1530
01:09:22,610 --> 01:09:20,100
cost if it were a costume that could

1531
01:09:23,349 --> 01:09:22,620
fill the proportions and

1532
01:09:25,789 --> 01:09:23,359
um

1533
01:09:28,930 --> 01:09:25,799
daglin in his book

1534
01:09:33,050 --> 01:09:28,940
takes and in a previously

1535
01:09:36,829 --> 01:09:33,060
published article which I reviewed

1536
01:09:39,970 --> 01:09:36,839
uh he took Grant Krantz to task he

1537
01:09:43,309 --> 01:09:39,980
referred to some some

1538
01:09:46,070 --> 01:09:43,319
anthropometric manuals where they have

1539
01:09:48,650 --> 01:09:46,080
these huge data sets that are gleaned

1540
01:09:49,729 --> 01:09:48,660
from lots and lots of army recruits and

1541
01:09:52,970 --> 01:09:49,739
there are different National there's

1542
01:09:55,370 --> 01:09:52,980
American and German and so forth you

1543
01:09:59,150 --> 01:09:55,380
know various NATO Nations that make

1544
01:10:01,910 --> 01:09:59,160
their data available and one of the

1545
01:10:04,310 --> 01:10:01,920
measures had to do with chess not the

1546
01:10:06,470 --> 01:10:04,320
shoulders but the chest

1547
01:10:09,770 --> 01:10:06,480
and um

1548
01:10:13,490 --> 01:10:09,780
uh daeglin

1549
01:10:19,130 --> 01:10:13,500
cited one of these anthropometric

1550
01:10:22,550 --> 01:10:19,140
values as as that showing that humans

1551
01:10:26,270 --> 01:10:22,560
um were big enough to fill that well

1552
01:10:26,870 --> 01:10:26,280
what he chose was the

1553
01:10:29,390 --> 01:10:26,880
um

1554
01:10:30,110 --> 01:10:29,400
intersky

1555
01:10:33,350 --> 01:10:30,120
um

1556
01:10:36,770 --> 01:10:33,360
which is called which is a measure uh

1557
01:10:40,250 --> 01:10:36,780
not of just a chest breath but the

1558
01:10:42,050 --> 01:10:40,260
surface measure across the chest from

1559
01:10:44,149 --> 01:10:42,060
the center of the armpit one armpit

1560
01:10:46,669 --> 01:10:44,159
across the front of the chest you know a

1561
01:10:49,010 --> 01:10:46,679
taped measure across the surface to the

1562
01:10:53,450 --> 01:10:49,020
other armpit which obviously is much

1563
01:10:54,770 --> 01:10:53,460
more than is the the chest breath

1564
01:10:56,810 --> 01:10:54,780
measure

1565
01:10:59,090 --> 01:10:56,820
and I pointed this and he had conflated

1566
01:11:01,850 --> 01:10:59,100
those two there's they're not comparable

1567
01:11:05,750 --> 01:11:01,860
in the least I mean one can be 20 to 30

1568
01:11:07,610 --> 01:11:05,760
percent more than uh the other the the

1569
01:11:10,010 --> 01:11:07,620
taped measure across you know it's

1570
01:11:12,470 --> 01:11:10,020
essentially a hemispheric a half a

1571
01:11:15,350 --> 01:11:12,480
circumference of the chest basically

1572
01:11:17,450 --> 01:11:15,360
instead of the diameter you know you

1573
01:11:19,310 --> 01:11:17,460
would never equate those two

1574
01:11:21,169 --> 01:11:19,320
and he wouldn't back down he wouldn't

1575
01:11:22,910 --> 01:11:21,179
correct it he wouldn't retract that and

1576
01:11:25,550 --> 01:11:22,920
then he went and republished it in his

1577
01:11:29,510 --> 01:11:25,560
with even more Exposition in his book

1578
01:11:32,630 --> 01:11:29,520
and and you know lambasted Krantz is is

1579
01:11:37,030 --> 01:11:32,640
not knowing his trade his craft and and

1580
01:11:40,430 --> 01:11:37,040
it was you know the opposite was true so

1581
01:11:43,070 --> 01:11:40,440
that like you as you you as you point

1582
01:11:44,689 --> 01:11:43,080
out if you've got that breadth then how

1583
01:11:47,570 --> 01:11:44,699
you know you can't have your arms swing

1584
01:11:49,130 --> 01:11:47,580
it's like when you put on a parka that's

1585
01:11:51,169 --> 01:11:49,140
too big and your arms are out here it's

1586
01:11:53,090 --> 01:11:51,179
like that uh Christmas Story image of

1587
01:11:54,530 --> 01:11:53,100
the little kid all wrapped up to go to

1588
01:11:57,290 --> 01:11:54,540
school and his arms are sticking out in

1589
01:11:59,209 --> 01:11:57,300
sides and he can't put his arms down

1590
01:12:01,430 --> 01:11:59,219
that's what it would be like if you were

1591
01:12:04,130 --> 01:12:01,440
in the costume and so they said oh well

1592
01:12:06,169 --> 01:12:04,140
then you could stick your elbows right

1593
01:12:09,530 --> 01:12:06,179
in the shoulders and then just have

1594
01:12:10,550 --> 01:12:09,540
extensions your wrist would be would be

1595
01:12:13,250 --> 01:12:10,560
the

1596
01:12:15,229 --> 01:12:13,260
um costume elbow and you would have an

1597
01:12:17,689 --> 01:12:15,239
extension that went down to the hand

1598
01:12:20,270 --> 01:12:17,699
well unfortunately that makes the

1599
01:12:23,810 --> 01:12:20,280
shoulders breath too great you know you

1600
01:12:25,850 --> 01:12:23,820
can't you can't break bones to uh split

1601
01:12:28,729 --> 01:12:25,860
the difference and and we can see

1602
01:12:32,630 --> 01:12:28,739
movements in the fingers we can see when

1603
01:12:36,250 --> 01:12:32,640
you extend the wrist it caused the

1604
01:12:39,169 --> 01:12:36,260
tension in the flexors muscles cause the

1605
01:12:41,030 --> 01:12:39,179
fingers to flex they're extended and

1606
01:12:43,490 --> 01:12:41,040
then when the wrist goes up the fingers

1607
01:12:46,250 --> 01:12:43,500
Flex naturally the passively

1608
01:12:48,229 --> 01:12:46,260
so that wouldn't be built into a costume

1609
01:12:51,830 --> 01:12:48,239
like that if you just had a

1610
01:12:54,950 --> 01:12:51,840
a broomstick you know Boris Phillip

1611
01:12:59,689 --> 01:12:54,960
Morris even argued that he explained how

1612
01:13:02,270 --> 01:12:59,699
Roger could extend the arm length by

1613
01:13:05,149 --> 01:13:02,280
having the person in the costume hold a

1614
01:13:07,729 --> 01:13:05,159
sawed-off broomstick that stuck into the

1615
01:13:08,930 --> 01:13:07,739
hand stuffed the hand with with paper or

1616
01:13:10,729 --> 01:13:08,940
something and then just stick the

1617
01:13:12,830 --> 01:13:10,739
broomstick you know and then I guess

1618
01:13:15,530 --> 01:13:12,840
hope that it doesn't slip off the end is

1619
01:13:17,630 --> 01:13:15,540
during the middle of your your shoe but

1620
01:13:19,910 --> 01:13:17,640
that doesn't that then your forearm is

1621
01:13:22,189 --> 01:13:19,920
way too long by comparison to the upper

1622
01:13:24,830 --> 01:13:22,199
arm and her proportions are are

1623
01:13:28,189 --> 01:13:24,840
reasonable compared to other

1624
01:13:30,830 --> 01:13:28,199
um other primates and humans so

1625
01:13:32,390 --> 01:13:30,840
all right um so we've got about 15

1626
01:13:35,330 --> 01:13:32,400
minutes left so we want to go quick

1627
01:13:38,090 --> 01:13:35,340
hitters on this uh this final round that

1628
01:13:40,250 --> 01:13:38,100
we're gonna do Jeff uh Nathan what I was

1629
01:13:42,410 --> 01:13:40,260
going to tell Alexander uh more on this

1630
01:13:44,689 --> 01:13:42,420
there we we don't know uh if President

1631
01:13:46,970 --> 01:13:44,699
Roosevelt knew about the Bigfoot

1632
01:13:49,310 --> 01:13:46,980
connection there's no way that that we

1633
01:13:51,350 --> 01:13:49,320
could know that is possible but it is a

1634
01:13:53,689 --> 01:13:51,360
conspiracy theory that's popular it's

1635
01:13:55,550 --> 01:13:53,699
possible that he knew and and perhaps he

1636
01:13:56,930 --> 01:13:55,560
didn't know

1637
01:13:58,370 --> 01:13:56,940
um and that's the other question about

1638
01:14:00,110 --> 01:13:58,380
the weaponization of Bigfoot again

1639
01:14:04,430 --> 01:14:00,120
that's something that nobody here could

1640
01:14:07,070 --> 01:14:04,440
speak to all right uh so Dr Jeff I I've

1641
01:14:09,410 --> 01:14:07,080
discussed this hypothesis with a couple

1642
01:14:12,709 --> 01:14:09,420
of researchers

1643
01:14:15,350 --> 01:14:12,719
um a researcher who wanted to remain

1644
01:14:17,209 --> 01:14:15,360
nameless actually told me that that this

1645
01:14:19,550 --> 01:14:17,219
happened to him and it was corroborated

1646
01:14:21,770 --> 01:14:19,560
by another field researcher that was

1647
01:14:24,830 --> 01:14:21,780
with him this is somebody with um

1648
01:14:27,950 --> 01:14:24,840
multiple decades in it someone that that

1649
01:14:30,590 --> 01:14:27,960
I think is trustworthy I discussed this

1650
01:14:34,250 --> 01:14:30,600
with Tim so let me ask you this do you

1651
01:14:37,310 --> 01:14:34,260
believe in homes that their people have

1652
01:14:39,290 --> 01:14:37,320
experienced ghosts of some sort do you

1653
01:14:42,470 --> 01:14:39,300
believe that

1654
01:14:46,490 --> 01:14:42,480
you know I I don't really have a an

1655
01:14:47,510 --> 01:14:46,500
opinion uh as to

1656
01:14:49,490 --> 01:14:47,520
um

1657
01:14:52,130 --> 01:14:49,500
the role of

1658
01:14:55,430 --> 01:14:52,140
or the existence of ghosts or Spirits

1659
01:15:00,470 --> 01:14:55,440
I've never had any personal experiences

1660
01:15:03,649 --> 01:15:00,480
that would that would um you know

1661
01:15:05,630 --> 01:15:03,659
give substance to an opinion like that

1662
01:15:08,450 --> 01:15:05,640
but it's within the realm of possibility

1663
01:15:10,010 --> 01:15:08,460
you would sure oh yeah I don't I don't

1664
01:15:11,990 --> 01:15:10,020
rule out the fact that or the

1665
01:15:13,510 --> 01:15:12,000
possibility not the fact rule out the

1666
01:15:17,570 --> 01:15:13,520
possibility that there could be other

1667
01:15:19,970 --> 01:15:17,580
dimensions and other other forms

1668
01:15:22,250 --> 01:15:19,980
so so what I was trying to come up with

1669
01:15:25,430 --> 01:15:22,260
I heard someone famous in the in the

1670
01:15:27,050 --> 01:15:25,440
Bigfoot Community posit this Theory and

1671
01:15:28,550 --> 01:15:27,060
I don't want to say his name because I

1672
01:15:30,470 --> 01:15:28,560
don't want to color what your response

1673
01:15:32,030 --> 01:15:30,480
would be by the individual's name but

1674
01:15:33,709 --> 01:15:32,040
then I checked it out by checking with

1675
01:15:37,130 --> 01:15:33,719
some other people about this

1676
01:15:41,090 --> 01:15:37,140
but we don't you know nobody can prove

1677
01:15:43,250 --> 01:15:41,100
about a parent necessarily A paranormal

1678
01:15:45,169 --> 01:15:43,260
aspect of Bigfoot people have said they

1679
01:15:47,330 --> 01:15:45,179
have seen them do things they have heard

1680
01:15:49,250 --> 01:15:47,340
them walk up to a tent but then they

1681
01:15:50,930 --> 01:15:49,260
could they never heard them walk away or

1682
01:15:52,790 --> 01:15:50,940
they didn't hear them walk up but then

1683
01:15:54,709 --> 01:15:52,800
they did hear them walk away these types

1684
01:15:57,770 --> 01:15:54,719
of things so what I'm thinking if if

1685
01:16:01,130 --> 01:15:57,780
humans it's possible that humans are are

1686
01:16:04,189 --> 01:16:01,140
remaining in a location as a distressed

1687
01:16:06,229 --> 01:16:04,199
Spirit as a replayed memory as a ghost

1688
01:16:08,330 --> 01:16:06,239
that people experience in their homes

1689
01:16:09,830 --> 01:16:08,340
and there's you know thousands and

1690
01:16:12,110 --> 01:16:09,840
thousands of people that that report

1691
01:16:15,350 --> 01:16:12,120
that they have had some sort of ghost

1692
01:16:18,770 --> 01:16:15,360
activity in their home from a traumatic

1693
01:16:21,050 --> 01:16:18,780
event that occurred in that home so if

1694
01:16:23,810 --> 01:16:21,060
there are some inexplicable events in

1695
01:16:26,930 --> 01:16:23,820
the woods with Bigfoot is it possible

1696
01:16:28,070 --> 01:16:26,940
that it's nothing more than one that

1697
01:16:31,430 --> 01:16:28,080
died

1698
01:16:33,229 --> 01:16:31,440
that that it's it's a ghost of an animal

1699
01:16:35,050 --> 01:16:33,239
that lived there a living breathing

1700
01:16:37,070 --> 01:16:35,060
animal that died and then is now

1701
01:16:38,870 --> 01:16:37,080
replaying something it may have had a

1702
01:16:41,030 --> 01:16:38,880
traumatic event there it may have loved

1703
01:16:43,490 --> 01:16:41,040
that space who knows for the same

1704
01:16:45,169 --> 01:16:43,500
reasons that Spirits don't uh can't

1705
01:16:47,209 --> 01:16:45,179
somehow

1706
01:16:49,669 --> 01:16:47,219
um extricate themselves

1707
01:16:51,770 --> 01:16:49,679
you know from a from a location is it

1708
01:16:53,930 --> 01:16:51,780
possible that that's happened with a

1709
01:16:56,090 --> 01:16:53,940
Bigfoot and it would explain something

1710
01:16:57,890 --> 01:16:56,100
that looks like a portal but it's not

1711
01:17:00,410 --> 01:16:57,900
it's actually just a ghost that's

1712
01:17:02,090 --> 01:17:00,420
appearing and then disappearing sure as

1713
01:17:03,950 --> 01:17:02,100
they do yeah

1714
01:17:08,390 --> 01:17:03,960
well I mean

1715
01:17:11,990 --> 01:17:08,400
Never Say Never right I I I I I have no

1716
01:17:12,770 --> 01:17:12,000
way to evaluate that and and that's the

1717
01:17:16,689 --> 01:17:12,780
only

1718
01:17:19,370 --> 01:17:16,699
uh uh restriction or

1719
01:17:21,290 --> 01:17:19,380
self-limiting principle that I

1720
01:17:23,630 --> 01:17:21,300
adhere to because I you know I am

1721
01:17:26,090 --> 01:17:23,640
trained as a scientist I have I have

1722
01:17:29,630 --> 01:17:26,100
other interests obviously as well and

1723
01:17:30,229 --> 01:17:29,640
and certainly entertain broader

1724
01:17:32,229 --> 01:17:30,239
um

1725
01:17:38,990 --> 01:17:32,239
uh

1726
01:17:42,470 --> 01:17:39,000
scientist as an investigator I'm going

1727
01:17:45,470 --> 01:17:42,480
to hold myself to very uh rigid

1728
01:17:48,490 --> 01:17:45,480
standards yeah

1729
01:17:50,450 --> 01:17:48,500
yeah and so and I and so if someone

1730
01:17:54,229 --> 01:17:50,460
wants to

1731
01:17:56,990 --> 01:17:54,239
promulgate a a notion

1732
01:18:00,350 --> 01:17:57,000
uh Beyond just simply sharing a personal

1733
01:18:03,770 --> 01:18:00,360
experience then then they are beholding

1734
01:18:06,649 --> 01:18:03,780
to those uh those same standards of of

1735
01:18:07,850 --> 01:18:06,659
evidence I think and so you know when it

1736
01:18:11,510 --> 01:18:07,860
comes especially when it comes to

1737
01:18:13,130 --> 01:18:11,520
Bigfoot uh some of the claims that

1738
01:18:15,350 --> 01:18:13,140
people put out there

1739
01:18:17,510 --> 01:18:15,360
it's like I said I'm often

1740
01:18:19,850 --> 01:18:17,520
taking people up on their invitation to

1741
01:18:22,330 --> 01:18:19,860
come out and try to experience those

1742
01:18:24,290 --> 01:18:22,340
things with them and when I come along

1743
01:18:26,930 --> 01:18:24,300
suddenly these

1744
01:18:29,570 --> 01:18:26,940
uh wild uh experiences that they've

1745
01:18:32,209 --> 01:18:29,580
described failed to occur they don't

1746
01:18:34,250 --> 01:18:32,219
happen I I guess I'm the the wet blanket

1747
01:18:38,990 --> 01:18:34,260
at the party you know I'm not the party

1748
01:18:42,070 --> 01:18:39,000
pooper but and and other people who have

1749
01:18:44,209 --> 01:18:42,080
who I have pressed to

1750
01:18:46,850 --> 01:18:44,219
substantiate their experience

1751
01:18:48,770 --> 01:18:46,860
photographically or otherwise you know

1752
01:18:51,590 --> 01:18:48,780
they'll bring forth a photograph there

1753
01:18:53,630 --> 01:18:51,600
was one just recently he was going on

1754
01:18:55,729 --> 01:18:53,640
and on about all these orbs that he was

1755
01:18:57,229 --> 01:18:55,739
experiencing when he was out looking for

1756
01:18:58,330 --> 01:18:57,239
bigfoot and I said well you know do you

1757
01:19:01,610 --> 01:18:58,340
have any pictures

1758
01:19:03,410 --> 01:19:01,620
and uh in this case he said oh yeah I do

1759
01:19:05,090 --> 01:19:03,420
I said well will you share what you

1760
01:19:07,610 --> 01:19:05,100
think is your best most convincing

1761
01:19:10,430 --> 01:19:07,620
photograph so I get this if I get this

1762
01:19:14,270 --> 01:19:10,440
Photograph and it's a it's a flash

1763
01:19:15,950 --> 01:19:14,280
uh picture taken at night and he was

1764
01:19:18,290 --> 01:19:15,960
apparently camped under all these big

1765
01:19:20,450 --> 01:19:18,300
Ponderosa Pines that were in full

1766
01:19:24,169 --> 01:19:20,460
pollination if you've ever seen this

1767
01:19:26,750 --> 01:19:24,179
it's like a blizzard a flash picture and

1768
01:19:28,490 --> 01:19:26,760
it just is almost a white out and I said

1769
01:19:30,830 --> 01:19:28,500
well you know just to make sure we're on

1770
01:19:32,990 --> 01:19:30,840
the same page these are orbs yeah each

1771
01:19:36,290 --> 01:19:33,000
and every one of these is an orb it was

1772
01:19:38,209 --> 01:19:36,300
pollen reflecting the the flash of the

1773
01:19:39,590 --> 01:19:38,219
camera and that was you know and I know

1774
01:19:41,570 --> 01:19:39,600
I know other people have had more

1775
01:19:43,970 --> 01:19:41,580
described more convincing I had someone

1776
01:19:45,770 --> 01:19:43,980
as I was sharing this experience with

1777
01:19:48,229 --> 01:19:45,780
them they pulled out their phone and

1778
01:19:51,890 --> 01:19:48,239
here was this little orb right downtown

1779
01:19:53,750 --> 01:19:51,900
he was in in a parked car angled in with

1780
01:19:56,990 --> 01:19:53,760
angled parking so he's looking towards

1781
01:19:58,850 --> 01:19:57,000
the storefronts and dancing across you

1782
01:20:03,169 --> 01:19:58,860
know just a few feet above the sidewalk

1783
01:20:06,110 --> 01:20:03,179
is this ball of light but it looked

1784
01:20:08,270 --> 01:20:06,120
suspiciously to me like you know

1785
01:20:09,590 --> 01:20:08,280
something that was reflecting off of a

1786
01:20:12,110 --> 01:20:09,600
moving

1787
01:20:14,930 --> 01:20:12,120
window or a sign or something on the

1788
01:20:18,530 --> 01:20:14,940
opposite side because this our view was

1789
01:20:21,169 --> 01:20:18,540
in Shadow the sun was coming over the

1790
01:20:24,169 --> 01:20:21,179
tops of the buildings and hitting the

1791
01:20:26,270 --> 01:20:24,179
the buildings behind and and it looked

1792
01:20:28,550 --> 01:20:26,280
just like you know like that reflection

1793
01:20:31,790 --> 01:20:28,560
off that we used to take at one of our

1794
01:20:35,510 --> 01:20:31,800
CDs we had a dog who liked the cat with

1795
01:20:38,149 --> 01:20:35,520
the flashlight we'd use a CD catch the

1796
01:20:39,890 --> 01:20:38,159
sunlight and uh bounce that across the

1797
01:20:42,110 --> 01:20:39,900
floor and Men he'd go crazy freak them

1798
01:20:44,330 --> 01:20:42,120
out yeah but it looked just like that it

1799
01:20:46,189 --> 01:20:44,340
was just this kind of bouncing along an

1800
01:20:48,229 --> 01:20:46,199
irregular course you know I don't know I

1801
01:20:50,750 --> 01:20:48,239
don't know what that was I think it was

1802
01:20:52,070 --> 01:20:50,760
you know a more rational or no I

1803
01:20:55,570 --> 01:20:52,080
shouldn't say more rational I think it

1804
01:20:58,630 --> 01:20:55,580
was a simpler explanation than something

1805
01:21:04,490 --> 01:21:01,910
the ghost hypothesis I found to be it's

1806
01:21:06,169 --> 01:21:04,500
a little more digestible than saying

1807
01:21:08,750 --> 01:21:06,179
it's a portal to a different dimension

1808
01:21:10,490 --> 01:21:08,760
not say not to throw cold water on that

1809
01:21:12,470 --> 01:21:10,500
but I said okay okay ghosts are

1810
01:21:13,910 --> 01:21:12,480
something that a lot of us can to use a

1811
01:21:16,550 --> 01:21:13,920
word from last week's show which was

1812
01:21:20,209 --> 01:21:16,560
used like five times we can metabolize a

1813
01:21:22,010 --> 01:21:20,219
lot a lot easier than than portals and

1814
01:21:24,110 --> 01:21:22,020
stuff and basically to make a long story

1815
01:21:25,910 --> 01:21:24,120
short this individual was at the

1816
01:21:28,850 --> 01:21:25,920
trailhead they were headed back to the

1817
01:21:32,570 --> 01:21:28,860
vehicle and saw what looked like a

1818
01:21:35,630 --> 01:21:32,580
native a Native American person a white

1819
01:21:38,209 --> 01:21:35,640
person in Period clothing and then a

1820
01:21:40,370 --> 01:21:38,219
Bigfoot looking at them that that

1821
01:21:42,890 --> 01:21:40,380
appeared and all three of them appeared

1822
01:21:44,990 --> 01:21:42,900
to be spirit-like it wasn't until they

1823
01:21:48,290 --> 01:21:45,000
got in the car that one of the other

1824
01:21:51,890 --> 01:21:48,300
researchers said hey did you see that

1825
01:21:54,110 --> 01:21:51,900
Indian lady and the and the the little

1826
01:21:57,229 --> 01:21:54,120
girl with her you know and she sort of

1827
01:21:59,510 --> 01:21:57,239
was in a a hug from behind uh situation

1828
01:22:02,810 --> 01:21:59,520
so that's when this person was like okay

1829
01:22:05,510 --> 01:22:02,820
wow I you know I I think that this is

1830
01:22:08,890 --> 01:22:05,520
this is a possibility now but anyway

1831
01:22:13,310 --> 01:22:08,900
yeah I've never heard that suggestion

1832
01:22:17,090 --> 01:22:13,320
spectral Sasquatch uh ghosts yeah I mean

1833
01:22:18,530 --> 01:22:17,100
so anyway let's get to uh Debs and we

1834
01:22:20,750 --> 01:22:18,540
have about we don't have a lot we've got

1835
01:22:22,910 --> 01:22:20,760
about six minutes left so let's get get

1836
01:22:25,250 --> 01:22:22,920
Debs and then uh we'll go with uh cabbie

1837
01:22:26,630 --> 01:22:25,260
goodbyes yeah I just wanted to ask if

1838
01:22:29,270 --> 01:22:26,640
you think there are any other videos

1839
01:22:34,850 --> 01:22:29,280
that we should be looking at of um

1840
01:22:37,610 --> 01:22:34,860
Bigfoot to kind of like well one that uh

1841
01:22:39,070 --> 01:22:37,620
that I featured in my books Sasquatch

1842
01:22:42,770 --> 01:22:39,080
Legend meets science

1843
01:22:45,890 --> 01:22:42,780
uh was the Freeman footage

1844
01:22:48,709 --> 01:22:45,900
uh shot outside of Walla Walla up near a

1845
01:22:50,870 --> 01:22:48,719
place called deduct Springs and uh Cliff

1846
01:22:53,209 --> 01:22:50,880
barrickman has been doing some

1847
01:22:55,970 --> 01:22:53,219
interesting things uh

1848
01:22:59,270 --> 01:22:55,980
trying to well he's gone back to the

1849
01:23:00,890 --> 01:22:59,280
site and and identified the landmarks

1850
01:23:05,090 --> 01:23:00,900
and there's been a few changes obviously

1851
01:23:09,229 --> 01:23:05,100
over the years but you can quite readily

1852
01:23:11,750 --> 01:23:09,239
have a person uh walk that path and put

1853
01:23:15,050 --> 01:23:11,760
their feet exactly where they should be

1854
01:23:18,290 --> 01:23:15,060
relative to the image on the on the

1855
01:23:19,490 --> 01:23:18,300
video and it makes for a really

1856
01:23:20,050 --> 01:23:19,500
interesting

1857
01:23:22,490 --> 01:23:20,060
um

1858
01:23:24,770 --> 01:23:22,500
corroboration I think it's going they're

1859
01:23:27,410 --> 01:23:24,780
going to do a more in-depth analysis to

1860
01:23:29,110 --> 01:23:27,420
include in the sequel Sasquatch leisure

1861
01:23:30,970 --> 01:23:29,120
mean Science 2 so I'll probably be

1862
01:23:32,930 --> 01:23:30,980
discussing that

1863
01:23:34,790 --> 01:23:32,940
highlighting that further in the

1864
01:23:36,169 --> 01:23:34,800
companion volume that will be coming out

1865
01:23:39,410 --> 01:23:36,179
with that

1866
01:23:41,149 --> 01:23:39,420
so that's one that's still up there

1867
01:23:43,310 --> 01:23:41,159
um you know I get

1868
01:23:44,990 --> 01:23:43,320
so many I get inundated with so many

1869
01:23:45,770 --> 01:23:45,000
things

1870
01:23:48,830 --> 01:23:45,780
um

1871
01:23:52,490 --> 01:23:48,840
it's hard to think out yeah

1872
01:23:53,390 --> 01:23:52,500
it's hard to pick out ones but uh

1873
01:23:57,470 --> 01:23:53,400
um

1874
01:23:59,930 --> 01:23:57,480
one one that it's always struck my uh or

1875
01:24:01,910 --> 01:23:59,940
peaked my curiosity but I've never had

1876
01:24:05,030 --> 01:24:01,920
the chance to delve into it any further

1877
01:24:07,790 --> 01:24:05,040
is I think it's called the high cliff uh

1878
01:24:11,149 --> 01:24:07,800
video where the fella comes up behind a

1879
01:24:14,630 --> 01:24:11,159
Sasquatch that's tearing open uh uh yes

1880
01:24:16,189 --> 01:24:14,640
a cavity in a cypress tree and then it

1881
01:24:18,229 --> 01:24:16,199
stands up and you see it looks like

1882
01:24:20,450 --> 01:24:18,239
you're looking at the back of the head

1883
01:24:22,669 --> 01:24:20,460
and shoulders of a gorilla

1884
01:24:24,290 --> 01:24:22,679
and then it stands up on these long legs

1885
01:24:25,850 --> 01:24:24,300
so you get this you know from the waist

1886
01:24:27,530 --> 01:24:25,860
up it looks like a gorilla from the

1887
01:24:29,390 --> 01:24:27,540
waist down suddenly hear these long

1888
01:24:31,630 --> 01:24:29,400
hairy legs and the guy freaks out and

1889
01:24:35,930 --> 01:24:31,640
runs away

1890
01:24:39,229 --> 01:24:35,940
I understand but that's one I've always

1891
01:24:42,290 --> 01:24:39,239
wanted apparently the owner is asking

1892
01:24:45,290 --> 01:24:42,300
the very steep licensing fee so it has

1893
01:24:49,070 --> 01:24:45,300
not been subjected to further analysis

1894
01:24:52,130 --> 01:24:49,080
on documentaries or TV shows and so you

1895
01:24:54,530 --> 01:24:52,140
know that's one step in uh I think

1896
01:24:56,750 --> 01:24:54,540
finger thunker may have broken it down

1897
01:24:59,810 --> 01:24:56,760
at some point

1898
01:25:01,090 --> 01:24:59,820
um favorably uh if nothing else the

1899
01:25:04,070 --> 01:25:01,100
scale

1900
01:25:07,610 --> 01:25:04,080
uh would suggest something that's really

1901
01:25:11,149 --> 01:25:07,620
quite large based on the size of the of

1902
01:25:12,410 --> 01:25:11,159
the Cypress trunk that he's working on

1903
01:25:14,630 --> 01:25:12,420
there

1904
01:25:16,010 --> 01:25:14,640
that video is scary man because you're

1905
01:25:17,450 --> 01:25:16,020
like I need to get up out of here

1906
01:25:21,410 --> 01:25:17,460
because it's like there's an anger

1907
01:25:24,830 --> 01:25:21,420
associated with it all right

1908
01:25:26,450 --> 01:25:24,840
um let's go with uh Cami goodbyes uh Tim

1909
01:25:28,189 --> 01:25:26,460
since you're a cabbie today you can say

1910
01:25:30,229 --> 01:25:28,199
goodbye to Dr Jeff first

1911
01:25:31,370 --> 01:25:30,239
all right well Dr Jeff I actually I

1912
01:25:33,530 --> 01:25:31,380
wanna I wanna

1913
01:25:35,810 --> 01:25:33,540
suggest for the audience you know make

1914
01:25:39,590 --> 01:25:35,820
sure you go to the relicaminoid inquiry

1915
01:25:42,050 --> 01:25:39,600
yes uh got it if you haven't read yet Dr

1916
01:25:44,330 --> 01:25:42,060
Jeff's book it's it's it's it's a must

1917
01:25:46,430 --> 01:25:44,340
whether whatever you feel you believe

1918
01:25:49,070 --> 01:25:46,440
after you read it it's up to you but you

1919
01:25:50,270 --> 01:25:49,080
got to start there so and I just hey I

1920
01:25:52,130 --> 01:25:50,280
appreciate everything you do for the

1921
01:25:54,470 --> 01:25:52,140
community Dr Jeff and we'll we'll chat

1922
01:25:55,610 --> 01:25:54,480
with you real soon okay very good thank

1923
01:25:58,310 --> 01:25:55,620
you

1924
01:26:00,770 --> 01:25:58,320
Debs

1925
01:26:03,530 --> 01:26:00,780
I just wanted to say thank you so much

1926
01:26:06,290 --> 01:26:03,540
for bringing science into this topic we

1927
01:26:08,930 --> 01:26:06,300
hope more scientists will come on board

1928
01:26:11,629 --> 01:26:08,940
um with all of these topics and continue

1929
01:26:14,030 --> 01:26:11,639
to apply the scientific method and

1930
01:26:17,750 --> 01:26:14,040
credibility to these topics that are

1931
01:26:19,330 --> 01:26:17,760
touching everybody so much thanks

1932
01:26:23,450 --> 01:26:19,340
appreciate that

1933
01:26:26,330 --> 01:26:23,460
money uh yeah Dr Meldrum it is uh

1934
01:26:29,450 --> 01:26:26,340
refreshing to see your enthusiasm uh

1935
01:26:31,910 --> 01:26:29,460
still going strong for this topic and

1936
01:26:34,370 --> 01:26:31,920
nearly three decades right so it's a

1937
01:26:36,530 --> 01:26:34,380
absolutely incredible I could listen to

1938
01:26:38,090 --> 01:26:36,540
you talk about this all day long I wish

1939
01:26:40,490 --> 01:26:38,100
I were in one of your classes I bet it

1940
01:26:42,350 --> 01:26:40,500
would be fascinating so uh thank you for

1941
01:26:44,209 --> 01:26:42,360
uh spending some time with us and and

1942
01:26:46,189 --> 01:26:44,219
educating us on this tonight it's been

1943
01:26:48,350 --> 01:26:46,199
really really amazing and we look

1944
01:26:50,570 --> 01:26:48,360
forward to the next book well good

1945
01:26:52,189 --> 01:26:50,580
thanks Nathan it's not too late he might

1946
01:26:54,890 --> 01:26:52,199
have some openings next semester so

1947
01:26:58,250 --> 01:26:56,090
yes

1948
01:27:00,229 --> 01:26:58,260
just from North Carolina

1949
01:27:02,629 --> 01:27:00,239
um yeah I was going to say Legend meat

1950
01:27:04,910 --> 01:27:02,639
science is the book and it was also a

1951
01:27:07,610 --> 01:27:04,920
documentary which I've yet to see was in

1952
01:27:09,709 --> 01:27:07,620
association with uh Doug hi check who's

1953
01:27:12,410 --> 01:27:09,719
going to be a very he's going to be

1954
01:27:13,850 --> 01:27:12,420
coming up soon I think in August on uh

1955
01:27:16,010 --> 01:27:13,860
cab as well we're looking forward to

1956
01:27:18,590 --> 01:27:16,020
that and so there's going to be a second

1957
01:27:20,390 --> 01:27:18,600
documentary uh is what you're talking

1958
01:27:24,169 --> 01:27:20,400
about that was green lid am I correct

1959
01:27:27,290 --> 01:27:24,179
yes yes he's begun filming and so it'll

1960
01:27:31,310 --> 01:27:27,300
be it'll be interesting to extend we've

1961
01:27:32,770 --> 01:27:31,320
now been what 17 17 plus years well my

1962
01:27:36,709 --> 01:27:32,780
book came out in

1963
01:27:40,370 --> 01:27:36,719
2006. so things that have developed as

1964
01:27:43,850 --> 01:27:40,380
well as new lines of evidence new uh new

1965
01:27:47,149 --> 01:27:43,860
inquiry but also extending kind of the

1966
01:27:48,950 --> 01:27:47,159
threads of um of evidence from the first

1967
01:27:51,770 --> 01:27:48,960
edition

1968
01:27:53,090 --> 01:27:51,780
before hey Jeff before we go before I

1969
01:27:54,290 --> 01:27:53,100
there's one more thing I want to ask

1970
01:27:56,390 --> 01:27:54,300
real quick

1971
01:27:58,610 --> 01:27:56,400
um if you were to characterize your

1972
01:28:02,149 --> 01:27:58,620
whole experience out there in the

1973
01:28:04,669 --> 01:28:02,159
Canadian uh Rockies with uh with uh Todd

1974
01:28:06,830 --> 01:28:04,679
Standing uh that experience could you

1975
01:28:08,810 --> 01:28:06,840
just characterize that real quick well

1976
01:28:12,830 --> 01:28:08,820
it was a real positive experience you

1977
01:28:15,950 --> 01:28:12,840
know I went with an open mind and uh as

1978
01:28:17,629 --> 01:28:15,960
his guest his at his invitation and I

1979
01:28:19,970 --> 01:28:17,639
thought this would be a great chance to

1980
01:28:23,149 --> 01:28:19,980
see that part of the country and and get

1981
01:28:25,370 --> 01:28:23,159
to know him as well as look more closely

1982
01:28:29,209 --> 01:28:25,380
um I didn't wasn't afforded as much time

1983
01:28:31,250 --> 01:28:29,219
to really delve into his evidence uh the

1984
01:28:33,649 --> 01:28:31,260
the videographic evidence the

1985
01:28:36,110 --> 01:28:33,659
photographic evidence uh as I would have

1986
01:28:38,390 --> 01:28:36,120
liked to have but the four or five days

1987
01:28:40,910 --> 01:28:38,400
I spent in the field with him were were

1988
01:28:44,149 --> 01:28:40,920
really amazing and uh you know we hiked

1989
01:28:46,010 --> 01:28:44,159
out all over the place and saw footprint

1990
01:28:48,290 --> 01:28:46,020
saw 13 and a half inch 14 inch

1991
01:28:50,870 --> 01:28:48,300
footprints in the Moss we had baits

1992
01:28:53,629 --> 01:28:50,880
taken then we had Camp visited I mean

1993
01:28:55,129 --> 01:28:53,639
all those experiences were they unfolded

1994
01:28:59,270 --> 01:28:55,139
as you see it on the video he did a good

1995
01:29:00,830 --> 01:28:59,280
job he's stuck to the facts and uh uh

1996
01:29:02,390 --> 01:29:00,840
you know sometimes he shoots himself in

1997
01:29:04,010 --> 01:29:02,400
the foot a little bit he's His Own Worst

1998
01:29:07,250 --> 01:29:04,020
Enemy because he's he's almost too

1999
01:29:08,930 --> 01:29:07,260
bombastic sure uh and I try to get him

2000
01:29:13,250 --> 01:29:08,940
to focus I try to get him to realize

2001
01:29:15,709 --> 01:29:13,260
that he needs to make his case not not

2002
01:29:18,410 --> 01:29:15,719
try to sell it look because it comes

2003
01:29:21,770 --> 01:29:18,420
across like he's trying to bamboozle and

2004
01:29:24,590 --> 01:29:21,780
uh and you know get one by and

2005
01:29:27,490 --> 01:29:24,600
um I don't know I I have serious

2006
01:29:30,229 --> 01:29:27,500
reservations about some of the

2007
01:29:32,689 --> 01:29:30,239
photographic evidence

2008
01:29:35,270 --> 01:29:32,699
um it's I must say it's not what I

2009
01:29:36,890 --> 01:29:35,280
expect you know when you're when you've

2010
01:29:39,350 --> 01:29:36,900
got the Patterson gimlin film and it

2011
01:29:40,550 --> 01:29:39,360
seems so consistent with and there's

2012
01:29:42,290 --> 01:29:40,560
there's some of his things that he

2013
01:29:46,850 --> 01:29:42,300
portrays but you know the close-up

2014
01:29:50,709 --> 01:29:46,860
facials especially the first two are

2015
01:29:54,169 --> 01:29:50,719
are seem and very anomalous

2016
01:29:56,209 --> 01:29:54,179
you don't seem you know right what I

2017
01:29:58,310 --> 01:29:56,219
would expect and but on the other hand

2018
01:30:00,530 --> 01:29:58,320
some of the criticism this is you know I

2019
01:30:02,689 --> 01:30:00,540
always try to because some of the

2020
01:30:05,990 --> 01:30:02,699
Christians that were were weighed are

2021
01:30:08,270 --> 01:30:06,000
leveled rather against it were kind of

2022
01:30:12,229 --> 01:30:08,280
baseless and it was very easy to find

2023
01:30:15,830 --> 01:30:12,239
counter examples that supported the

2024
01:30:18,950 --> 01:30:15,840
image rather than detracted from it and

2025
01:30:22,010 --> 01:30:18,960
um so you know there were some some

2026
01:30:24,310 --> 01:30:22,020
things yeah anyway yeah it's hard to

2027
01:30:26,870 --> 01:30:24,320
make a short give a short answer

2028
01:30:29,750 --> 01:30:26,880
tendency to ramble a little bit you know

2029
01:30:31,669 --> 01:30:29,760
I I we appreciate it we we learned a lot

2030
01:30:33,350 --> 01:30:31,679
and we would love to have you back on

2031
01:30:35,629 --> 01:30:33,360
again because I certainly have more

2032
01:30:37,970 --> 01:30:35,639
questions about the things that really

2033
01:30:40,310 --> 01:30:37,980
Intrigue you uh Beyond just the the

2034
01:30:43,490 --> 01:30:40,320
actual part of that that have to do with

2035
01:30:45,229 --> 01:30:43,500
uh your area of expertise but to just ex

2036
01:30:47,270 --> 01:30:45,239
uh that your knowledge of different

2037
01:30:49,850 --> 01:30:47,280
narratives writ large and things that

2038
01:30:52,070 --> 01:30:49,860
that you've come to know and learn

2039
01:30:55,850 --> 01:30:52,080
um so thank you very much on behalf of

2040
01:30:57,530 --> 01:30:55,860
everybody here Tim Deb Nathan this is DJ

2041
01:31:00,350 --> 01:30:57,540
and calling all beings thank you Dr

2042
01:31:02,510 --> 01:31:00,360
Meldrum we're saying peace out one love

2043
01:31:04,129 --> 01:31:02,520
we'll see you down the road and as

2044
01:31:05,990 --> 01:31:04,139
always we wonder what's up around the

2045
01:31:06,950 --> 01:31:06,000
bend yep